Warrior phylosophy needs to change... Current fantasy is not the Warrior Fantasy (PVP)

Classes Warrior
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AS title says, the current interaction of warrior is not the warrior fantasy. Ive played Warrior since Vanilla up to Legion, then retook Arms in 9.0. Was pretty fun but then you nerfed Defensive Stance to the ground and “forced” to go fury on pvp.

Fury for me doesnt do the warrior fantasy, only arms.

Arms Warrior is supposed to be a WARRIOR, with a big huge AXE/SWORD/MACE, hitting like 2 hands, the fantasy for me is that each hit should hit like a truck, but SLOW.

So for arms, why are we seeing on DF a more bleed oriented playstyle with the execute nerf, so more oriented to bleeds instead of hard hits.

Why are Warriors in the current game, so damn squishy ?. Why has plate become so irrelevant ??, it used to be 40 to 50% physical damage reduction at end of expansions, now it doesnt even arrive to 30% (Notwithstanding the fact that not only more and more melee has gotten some form of magic damage, bypassing all armor entirely, the very few physical damage is being reduced by less ammount). I feel like stamina feels too low on Arms. Almost at Healers level, even with 40% versatility, warriors are too squishy.

I feel way more durable with my priest, even without healing, just popping some cooldowns like fade + shadowmend or w/e. Thats 19% stacked DR right there (10%+10%)

Ignore Pain is dissapearing from Fury/Arms.

Then you got Fury, why is fury playstile, specially 2h fury, revolving around hitting fast like a wet noodle ? You are hitting with 2 2 handers … yes i think you can make more raw force with 1 2h than with 2. But it still feels “rogue like”

For Arms i want more survivality, and to hit like a truck. Even if it means hitting less often and having less uptime !

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As a Fury main, I completely disagree with every point, so I hope this is a troll. Sure, even with 2 two handers, each individual hit may hit a bit less hard than most Arms abilities, but Rampage and Raging Blow, Etc do as much if not more damage than many Arms abilities. Currently, Fury out-dps’s Arms in a variety of scenarios too given equal gear/skill. So the argument that they dont hit as hard is kinda silly. If they hit as hard as arms with each swing, why on earth would you ever play Arms?

Also, Warrior is considered to be one of the most tanky Dps classes in the game… Fury has built in healing and a 1 min 30% reduct, Arms has defensive stance and Die by the sword (also 1 min cd iirc), and both have Spell reflect (a 20% magic damage reduct for 6s on 25s CD at worst). I can personally say that as fury I can tank a couple of elites in a 15+ key for a bit if nec. Not to mention giving the whole party 28% more health on click.

Sure, its not like WoW classic (vanilla) where you tanked as Fury or whatever, but I disagree that they are “squishy”. If your warriors are dying a lot its a skill issue, not a class one.

I like the “Raging Berserker” playstyle much more than the “Battlemaster”, but Im glad both exist and options and I feel like while the balance between classes/specs can always be better, the fantasy of both is pretty well captured IMO.

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You didnt understand what i meant by Rampage and fury hitting low.

I meant the individual hits. You will hardly get 10k rampage hits. You get multiple hits that do a lot of damage.

What i meant is i rather hit once for 35k than 4 times each for 10k.

Then about warriors being the most durable. I’d guess you talking by not expiriencing other classes.

Die by the sword is not 1 min cd even with max conduit. More like 1:30… and cant be activated on stuns. Spell reflect 20% is good against dots but it dissapears as soon as an skill gets reflected.

Plate doesnt make much difference as most melee damage has become non physical. Only somehow strong vs other warriors. As rogues do even bleeds.
Ignore pain getting removed for arms/fury

And now they changing the arms hard hitting fantasy to be more bleeds oriented.
Also wtf with arms hp ? Almost the same as my priest on max gear…

Finally this was not a balance complaint. But more so a philosophical one

Also defensive stance is only 10% DR in pvp. At the cost of 20% damage. Hardly worth it after that nerf…
Finally stop talking about skill with 0 pvp achievement… and even if you were a gladiator. Its a fallacy the argument to authority or ad hominem you would try to make.

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go play ret

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Even in Vanilla the style of both specs wasn’t really very different. MS had a 6 sec CD, BT had a 6 sec CD. Really the main difference was the 2H Slam build which was still in Fury in Vanilla/TBC.

I do think it’s good for Fury to hit often but not for very much damage on individual hits, that is the fantasy and I think they’ve mostly done a good job with that.

For Arms I agree that I prefer a slower more methodical playstyle with bigger individual hits that you build up (I really liked Legion design for Arms; Precise Strikes, Shattered Defenses, EP, FR kinda). Unfortunately, filling every global is much more popular and also easier to balance around. If you’re a “one big hit” type of class then to be balanced damage-wise you have to be nearly useless outside of that one hit. It also becomes broken in situations where it’s very good. For example in PvP. Most balancing that has occurred at least in SL has been to lower burst damage, especially from instant cast abilities.

I definitely agree with you about armor and HP though. Just is what the game is now, and Warrior has been left behind.

As a Fury main,

Also, Warrior is considered to be one of the most tanky Dps classes in the game… Fury has built in healing and a 1 min 30% reduct, Arms has defensive stance and Die by the sword (also 1 min cd iirc), and both have Spell reflect (a 20% magic damage reduct for 6s on 25s CD at worst). I can personally say that as fury I can tank a couple of elites in a 15+ key for a bit if nec. Not to mention giving the whole party 28% more health on click.

Fury is a reasonably tanky spec in PvE. It is not tanky in PvP. Arms can be very tanky in PvE for short periods but the longer those periods go on, it becomes increasingly expensive and in general Arms is still very susceptible to just dying randomly because it doesn’t heal itself. Arms was a tanky spec in PvP in SL seasons 1 and 2 but now it is not.

Fury heals itself for 3% max HP every few seconds and has a no-cost 10% DR with very high uptime. Arms has mostly just had D Stance. D Stance is very good, but you can’t afford to sit in it in PvE because your job is to do damage. If you had to sit in D Stance all of the time in PvE it just wouldn’t be worth it to bring an Arms Warrior to anything. Impending Victory changes things for the better for Arms but they had to buff that to a 40% max HP heal before it got even as much play as it has, and it is still only situational. In PvP Arms was tanky early in the expansion because the DR on D Stance was twice as good but we were also doing a lot less damage. It was also the first time DPS Warrior had Ignore Pain which was honestly a massive help for Arms in PvP and PvE even though it ultimately didn’t change Arms core weaknesses, and still cost damage. The problem for Arms is that the game exists in a state where classes usually have a consistent way of recovering from damage, while for Arms any damage taken sticks and reducing that damage in the first place is generally less effective and costly (just using current Arms as an example; if you had to choose between Impending Victory and D Stance, why would you ever pick D Stance unless you were going to be literally one shot?)

I did like that in Vanilla you could actually tank dungeons as a DPS spec even at level 60. Yea, sometimes it was optimal/necessary to use a shield, but simply being a Warrior meant you were a tank because a large part of your tankiness was your armor and the ability to use a shield at will which you had full ability support for (you can’t cast MS if you don’t have only one 2H weapon equipped in retail) and also improved your tankiness massively. Yea, you can tank stuff sometimes depending on the content and difficulty these days, but if you can only do it for 8 seconds because of your CDs then I’d consider that much more “using a tool” than “being a tank”.

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I only do pvp, i often forget that people actually like pve (LMAO).

I was talking all about PVP

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I will say for Prot - the Warrior fantasy is in an odd spot.

I mean, for my big burst, I suddenly increase in size by like 33%, I turn into stone, I then throw a magic axe into the air that spins around like a blender, before issuing a loud yell and throwing a magical spear that blasts everyone with holy energy and keeps them bound in place while stomping madly in a tantrum, hitting everyone around with lightning and thunder…?

While I admit, it’s a fun combo to execute… it is a bit of a head scratcher. I’m a Warrior… not a Telekinetic Shapechanging Paladin Shaman. Would love some more down-to-earth reskins of these abilities - maybe a call to arms where like 10 soldiers join me in battle doing AOE damage in an area (for Ravager) and a more… non-magical version of Spear of Bastion for DF.

I know it’s been a struggle for them to keep Warrior feeling flashy and powerful while most every other class can basically realign the cosmos on a 2 minute cooldown, but the whole fantasy of a warrior is your body, your weapon (and possibly your shield)… not all these supernatural powers.

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rbgs are basically pve.

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i feel ya, but our gear has magical properties. So feats of strenght can be unnatural …

But yeah, being a priest and summoning forces from the void, feels more powerful than being Warrior somehow … xD

Yet… an Axe in the head is still an axe in the head :stuck_out_tongue:

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I especially like that everyone can tank my damage while they wear cloth and leather.

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IMO: The Warrior talent trees are the best ones of the bunch.

The insane amount of utility they have just given arms is going to be game defining for PvP, the left side of the Arms tree is a wet dream.

You get your entire current kit as arms, Plus:

  • Double time
  • Impending Victory
  • Insane passive regeneration Via Bleed > HP conversion and new Stormwall Talent.
  • Instant Wrecking Throw
  • The Huge Bleed Burst bomb Via Fracture Talent.
  • Fatality. (This is going to be huge if pvp isn’t super bursty imo)
  • ToM / or Anger Management
    +Second Wind. Niche situations, but worth

Battle Lord + Exhilatating Blows + Frothing Berzerker combined will make Haste much more irrelevant. We might be able to stack Crit again in PvP.

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Ive said it before, im not talking about balance…

Im talking about mitigation being a tad too low, AND more specifically the mentality of BIG HITS but slow has slowly changed over the years.

Now in DF, it seems to revolve around bleeds…

I Just want big hits. I know im never getting the 1 shot Mortal Strikes of Vanilla, but …

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Why? Rampage hits all come out at once on one button press. You will by your own admission give up 5k damage in that scenario, just so one hit looks bigger? Thats… interesting. I guess I get what you mean, but Id rather do the latter 100% of the time. I also dont get the bleed argument. 5k dps worth of bleeds with a 30k hit is waay better/more oppressive than a singe 35k hit, not to mention more damage.

I find it kinda funny that on the one hand you want single big physical hits and on the other complain that Armor doesnt do enough and that bleeds/non-physical are more prevalent. You do realize that you are arguing for Arms to be the class most affected by armor? Which I guess would make it “more relevant” but would also make Arms worse.

When did I claim to be a PvP expert? I was strictly talking from PvE. All I know about the Defensive stance thing is that is was considered too good by the PvP community at large so it was nerfed there in like Season 2 or whatever. Im willing to concede that in PvP I could see where Arms would be pretty squishy right now. And sure, maybe Fury too to a lesser degree. I honestly dont care at all. I don’t think its fair to say that it doesn’t fit the class fantasy just because of that.

Im getting the feeling what you really want is to have more health/damage reduction, do more damage (read: 1-shot), and be harder to kill in PvP . I don’t think the class fantasy has much to do with it at all. It strikes me more as a complaint that DPS Warrior isnt as good as you would like in PvP. Thats not a class fantasy argument.

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Arms doesn’t have to go into bleed if they don’t want to. There are plenty of bursty talents. Double stacking overpower for MS buff, plus sharpen blade, plus exploiter, gives you 155% increased damage. This does not take into account another 30% from CS, 20% avatar 10% crit from impale, another 10% if you talent sharpen blades over blunt instruments, nor does it take into account the crit damage from banner and spear. That is a very very chunky hit.
The bleed build is also very useful. Fracture in combination with with thunderous wounds, assuming you have all bleeds up, is also pretty bursty.

Arms has a 1.5min Die by the sword, ontop of having a ton of improved mobility (utility) and self healing now. I am not sure what else you are looking for from warrior in general. Is it perfect? no. But it is far beyond some other classes. Look at the other 2 2h classes, dk and ret. Our trees are way better off atm.
My only complain atm is spear of bastion. I very much dislike this skill and wish a capstone had it changed into a single target skill that could be activated again for a grip. But that is only wishful thinking.

To add, even with the damage nerf on defensive stance, it is literally a 20% DR up at all times you can have until you decide to burst. Name another class that has that for all damage types like that?(well I suppose warlocks now with soul link) We also get 10% increased stam for 1 talent point, a 3 min 20% heal remove all dots, and even 30% more armor (if that talent stays).

Lastly ontop of bladestorm to immune stuns and other cc, with the pvp talent and anger management is up basically every 45 seconds, even less with high up time.