Remove Slam…it is so lame, tired, not fun, nor interesting.
Piercing Howl…a 1.5 min cool down? Seriously? How about 45 seconds?
Dragon Charge PvP talent…let us take it while retaining Heroic Leap…give us back our mobility in PvP. No one wants a Prot Warrior Tank in PvP/Rated…we were the “Original Flag Carrier”, let us have the ability to be viable again!
Ignore Pain…The mechanic is not fun, nor interesting. It is the very first talent on the Prot Warrior tree? Bland, uninspiring, definitely does not set the tone for being a Warrior.
Improve self heals. It is 2026, why do we still need a pocket healer? Let us be fully self sufficient in any spec we choose, be it Arms, Prot, as well as Fury.
Although, I am all for removing the need to use Slam, however, that would require some fundamental adjustments made to Arm’s overall rotation. What would be your suggestion they do in its place?
I agree that this change was terrible and should’ve never happened. It was done so to be more in line with similar spells (e.g. Stampeding Roar, Wind Rush Totem, etc), but it can’t compete for obvious reasons. I wish they would have just left it like how it was pre-Midnight.
Yeah, this one stings. The talent is essentially dead because of the changes.
Hard disagree. Ignore Pain is such a good mechanic that I wish more class/specs would adopt a similar ability. It serves its purpose to mitigate up to a maximum amount of damage without it making you fully immune, thus not removing the need for healers during long and drawn-out fights.
For example, if your healer is eating a CC chain, there is still a good chance that the Warrior could die. In contrast, a Ret Paladin could spam heal himself in this situation to keep himself alive, which I think is an overall problem with the way how some classes are balanced.
If anything, Ignore Pain just needs to be buffed/changed for Arms, like putting it on a lower CD, off the GCD, and have it cost 35 rage. That way players have to decide whether to spend resources on staying alive over dealing more damage.
As mentioned previously, I think this is one of the biggest problems with the game, and the reason why things like Dampening currently still exists. Although, we’re on the Warrior forums, but think of things like a Shadow Priest versus a Mage. The Mage’s chance to win is greatly reduces significantly because it cannot heal itself like the Shadow Priest. How is that even considered as a fair fight?
This isn’t to say that all forms of healing should be removed, but I rather that the game be balanced around DPS classes having ways to mitigate damage instead of simply healing it.
However, I would like to add that I do wish Indomitable was a talent that all Warriors specs had access to.
I don’t see why it’d have to be all one or the other, or even shift noticeably between them. They’re just differently profiled means of sustain:
%DR has a higher maximum but lower minimum to its sustain provided, such that 40% DR against what would have been 50+% of max health will outperform a 20% of max health heal, but less would-be damage will instead make it inferior.
%DR must be performed before the damage to be nullified/undone, while healing must be done after. The first means one can just delay burst for until after the %DR and, if that DR skill were on the GCD, must use uptime for what could therefore become a waste, while the second is far less avoidable/wasteable and doesn’t have to potentially interrupt one’s own burst to apply it (thus far more often being on the GCD than %DR is).
NOTHING and we mean nothing! will remove our glorious slam-nation!
You’re right, we need a talent to reduce it and intimidating Shout to share a CD
He’s dead Jim, best to just bury it and send it the way of Intercept, Bloodrage, and Stance Dancing
What’s not to like? You get to cosplay as a Power Word: Shield spamming Discipline Priest without having a depressing label applied to your class (Paladin)
Most Warrior specs have pretty good self healing… except Arms… Not that the 10% heal from parrying ever truly worked anyway…
Saying to remove your no cooldown resource control ability without specifying a direction it would go instead is mental. It’s such a low thought take that shows you know absolutely nothing about the spec at all.
Piercing howl was overnerfed, it should be 45/60s and have a slightly stronger movespeed increase / duration increase if they are to keep it in parity with the other speed increase talents.
Dragon Charge shouldn’t have never been introduced to Arms/Fury.
Ignore pain is a fine mechanic.
Warrior self heals are more than fine, realistically second wind shouldn’t have received a PvP specific nerf and they should’ve just dealt with the problem which was prot’s PvP talent Power through Adversity. If anything more self heals should be nerfed for other dps specs in PvP.
As I had mentioned in the first part of the sentence:
It is fine to have some ways to regain some of the health that you might have lost but claiming that reducing damage through %DR, Absorbs, Dodging/Parrying, etc. is equivalent to healing back most if not all the damage you had taken is a bit crazy to me.
There are several examples as to why self-heals have gone through multiple adjustments over the course of the game’s lifespan. Not to mention the existence of Dampening also being a requirement.
This is also why classes/specs in the past performed much better when playing any form of solo content or double dps, and those who didn’t have adequate self-healing struggled.
I miss the days when it was 90% of damage taken, meaning it disappeared in one hit on high end content but made you completely invincible in content you outgeared.
Unless you’d otherwise be finished off in that window/blow, they literally differ only in the timing available to each. Nullifying 50k damage and healing 50k damage when having 150k health anyways… both leave you 50k above what you would otherwise be, which is 50k of sustain.
If you end up at the same health via identical resources spent, it does not matter whether that was done through %mitigation, a flat barrier, a capped %mit barrier, a flat heal, or a %heal.
If the heal would never go off because you were already one-shot, then in that situation, the mitigation tool obviously provided more sustain than the healing tool.
Meanwhile, if you dampen the heal or provide some effect whereby one ‘penetrates X% of [their] target’s defenses’, those obviously modify the sustain each can output…
…but there’s nothing fundamental about healing that makes it OP compared to not taking that damage in the first place; it’s literally just tuning.
Uncapped sustain (as based simply on incoming damage, a la temporary Armor, Death Strike, Shield Block, etc.) synergize with capped sustain (Ignore Pain, current-and-maximum HP increases, etc.), but that’s a matter of scaling, not whether its preemptive (mitigation) or reactive (healing).
You’re absolutely right, in the ideal scenario that you have presented, with all things being considered equal, if spell A nullified 50k damage and spell B healed 50k damage, then there would be no real difference between them.
I guess I should just have mentioned that I don’t base my thoughts off of the ideal scenario, but rather what could be seen in real world (of warcraft) instances with past, present, and future trends. This is because the game doesn’t exist with just spell A and spell B, but instead a bunch of other factors involved that often leads to self-healing being more beneficial over all else.
And are you actually optimizing the %DRs? Are you acknowledging the opportunity costs of at-cost heals? Are the two combatants equal even when each supported by a healer (or would the %DR, by increasing the amount of effective health being multiplied thereby, then make for a the stronger spec if they were already previously balanced for dueling — not that anything in WoW is, in fact, balanced for 1v1s or with much interest in the likes of Delves)?
To put it another way:
Similarly, though, who is more likely to be healable through extreme damage when said healer isn’t CCed and is able to focus on them? The one whose sustain is tuned around having no heals and therefore has more %DR, stacking multiplicatively with the value of healing taken and consumed over the duration, or the one who simply has their own heals to apply additively atop that input?
Will the Ret, post bubble (or given one SThrow and purge) be able to survive the same degree of pressure? (And if so, is that because of their healing / due to healing being underestimated or undertaxed? Or just because they’re overtooled on the whole?)
On the whole, I’d agree with you, in that one isn’t likely to put so much pressure on any particular non-healer until they’ve put the healer at least briefly out of commission; just noting that those are factors to consider as well.
That aside, also going to second these:
I’d love to see us scrap Battle/Berserker Stance (supplying the crit or AA buff via spec passive), make Defensive Stance a toggle in itself again, put Ignore Pain on the class tree at Row 1, and put Indomitable early-ish among the capstones.
I get your thought process but I think you’re not exactly correct in this instance.
To put it bluntly preventative mititgation is almost always stronger than reactive mitigation in almost every single aspect of the game when it is used correctly. Reactive only ends up being stronger if said player is poor at using their preventative toolkit accordingly, which does lead into reactive being somewhat stronger at lower skill levels. Warriors have a decent mix of both preventative (ignore pain / defensive stance) and reactive (impending victory), the problem comes in though from a PvP front where some classes have it too good in the solo department that make other classes feel worse off in situations where the group has the coordination of a herd of cats that were just scared by a cucumber.
There’s a reason nobody likes healing when Disc is meta because it’s main draw is to stop damage from even occurring so there’s next to nothing to heal for the actual throughput healers.
Arms used slam often in TWW though. It’s used in the exact same fashion in Midnight except becoming a priority when it turns into HS which has nothing clunky about it at all.
Can you at least say one thing that isn’t underbaked slop?
Preventative mitigation is only good up until a certain point, that point being is when you’re able to survive long enough to react to a given situation. Once you’ve reached that point, reactive, especially in the form of healing, takes over. This is because, unless you’re completely immune to damage, not being able to regain your health would lead to your death given a long enough time frame.
A good way to look at it is Blood DK vs Prot Warriors in past expansions. Blood DKs used to be the number one in tanking. This is because they mitigated just enough damage to where they could allow their self-healing to keep themselves alive. As opposed to Prot Warriors that, although arguably mitigated more damage overall in comparison to Blood DKs, could not regain their health, thus would eventually die if they did not receive constant healing from other sources.
So, how does this all fair out in PvP? Well, we have gone far past the days of Vanilla WoW where players are dying in a global through triple windfury, POM pyro, etc. and this is evident once again, as mentioned several times, by the incessant need for dampening. Having access to limited healing as a non-healing spec is absolutely fine and is welcomed. A good example is Impending Victory, it heals for a set amount, can only be used on yourself, it does not receive scaling through primary (strength) nor secondary stats, it cannot crit, and it has a fairly long cool down. It’s balanced around the idea of increasing your longevity in a fight without replacing the need for healing from external sources. Meanwhile, some classes have access to abilities that were primarily meant to keep yourself and/or others at full health because they were built into the classes with that in mind. Blizzard has recognized this as an issue and has even gone so far as putting a moderate mana cost on things such WoG for non-Holy specs, or Healing Surge for non-Resto to ensure that hybrid-heal spamming doesn’t last forever.
To your last point regarding Disc, the last time I remember Disc being meta and people hating it was during the first season of WoD. This is because Power Word Shield was not affected by dampening, this means that all other healers in the game became progressively weaker at a higher rate than Disc. If Disc Priest bubble absorbed 50k damage at 0% dampening, then it would also absorb 50k at 100% dampening. This eventually got fixed, even though many Disc players argued “Absorbs don’t restore health,” which is true, but they obviously forgot that Disc is also a healing spec, and unless they wanted to induce a 50% healing penalty on them right out of the gate to compensate, there was no way that changes weren’t going to be made. However, I would argue that no one would have complain, let alone Disc becoming meta, if dampening did not exist because the game would be balanced around heals always being at 100% unless targets were affected by Mortal Wounds (but that’s another story). This is why Disc often struggled in later expansions because their toolkit was balanced around preventing damage, which made their healing weaker, thus, causing them to go oom a lot faster than any other healer because they needed to spam more.
Imagine if i could check right now how was TWW tactician proc rate and how it is now.
“Exact same fashion” is not a good choice of words for almost 50% increase proc rate.
We didn’t use Slam at all though in PVP for a big part of the expansion, and even after it was buffed not everyone took the bait, it saw very little use either way and it was a couple of presses at most per game as using that open global when nothing else was available to refresh hamstring was a far bigger potential dps increase.
If you check warrior PVP video guides they make this exact argument, it was rare that nothing else was available to press (lower uptime factored in) and out of all things Slam was the lowest priority.
Imagine if I could check Slam CPM right now and how it was in TWW, or the priority of Heroic Strike (from the Slam button) relative to Overpower…
OP acts as our Rage economy and time-filling tuning knob; the higher our Rage without it and the more we need to press above its priority (such as newly increased via Heroic Strike), the more a high OP reset chance would just appear unnecessary clunk or a trap.
Whether it would be a 50% increase, meanwhile, would depend on the trigger. It was previously a 1.3x–1.8x per Rage (26%–36% on Slam, Cleave, and Rend; 39%–54% on MS; 26%–72% on Execute).
Resets from Slam, Cleave, and Rend were buffed or unaffected. Execute used optimally was buffed, unaffected directly, or unaffected in practice.
Only procs from Mortal Strike were 30% to 54% (54% / 35%) higher. And as that was the one most tied behind CDs, that’s not exactly the average indicator of proc generation over time.
I played slayer whole TWW, this lie is not going to convince me.
The dead zones which i had to press slam almost never happened, in current patch in the first 5 seconds im already forced to press slam, its not even close. Just stop.
