I mean, you’re preaching to the choir Etheldald. I’ve been anti Sylvanas since her coronation day. Blizzard made her warchief and wrote the Horde counter to character to have a Red Wedding moment – and they’ve admitted that was their goal the entire time.
They went so far as to have Sylvanas lie to herself in her own thoughts during the events of Before the Storm, in order to try to carry this forward.
The Horde playerbase is the victim here, whether you agree with it or not. You lost a tree (we lost the most important city in the entirety of the setting), you lost some unimportant vendor NPCs.
We lost our faction and one of the last named orcs – if not the second most important one.
The Forsaken lost everything about their race save for six(? Fewer?) characters.
i do agree with this but let’s try to not measure who lost more and who is more angry.
in one hand it sucks for people who main forsakens, in the other, the forsakens as a story faction has been nothing but maniacs who love bligting stuff,stealing characters, and of course blighting or burning cities.
is not my fault that blizzard wanted to have two playable factions at war.
and has done as much as possible to antagonize it.
i am anti horde no doubt because i have seen what they are in the story.
but if people will keep defending that story faction then i have no other choice but to challenge it.
What I said to you was “stop pretending to be sorry for the Horde when your comments show otherwise.” There are plenty of anti-Horde zealots on this board. You can be one of them too.
The answer for the fanbase, and fiction characters is largely the same.
She was a highly effective, intelligent (adjusting for WoW writing), commander who had a tendency to act very decisively and confidently.
At the time, she was a Horde leader who had been there longer than any leader that hadn’t exiled themselves or died. Internally to the Horde, her actions at Broken Shore illustrated loyalty to the Horde itself.
Was she engaged in actions one would think would at least be questionable to other Horde actors? Oh hell yes. But they were either not generally attributable to her, on the more subtle side, confined to forsaken who had betrayed her, and/or ultimately helped the Horde more than they hurt it.
So she had accumulated a tremendous amount of “benefit of the doubt”. Her actions were expected to be a bit shady, but the results of her history told a better tale for the Horde.
Then she blew up a tree because a night elf made her sad.
Then she unified the largely peace-and-harmony lead Alliance in to a full scale war footing.
Then she engaged in internal purges and loyalty tests that made Garrosh look like a ham-fisted donkey butt (I mean, he was, but still.)
She undermined what good will she had accumulated over the years, and became exactly the caricature her Alliance detractors, in universe and among the fans, had made her out to be. (full disclosure, I’m arguably somewhere in that pile).
So for those who were hoping for a Sylvanas proving their belief in her right, it was a bitter beating with little to salvage from it. Now what’s left? Just the people who, as we say, like to watch the world burn.
And, I suppose, the people who are really banking on this being some huge, 4d chess move by her that saves the universe, justifies all her atrocities (we are past that point for good or ill), and makes basically every other character in the I.P. look like a useless idiot.
Support for Sylvanas at the start of things (particularly before we knew for certain she was directly responsible for Teldrassil) was, at least, something that was justifiable. That almost immediately went off a cliff, and proceeded down the cliff, through a cactus patch, a barbed wire factory, and then off a second cliff, landing in a person shaped crater, before being crushed by a falling anvil.
This is where I think people get it wrong. They are not without blame. They did more than just not stopping it. They supported Sylvanas, whatever the reason. This means they do have blame.
Here is an analogy of how I see their situation.
Imagine a group of neighbors are in a tight spot. One of the friends (we will call SW) convinces the others to help in a robbery. Maybe they go along because of loyalty. Maybe because they are desperate for money. Etc. But they all go into it. They break into a house and tie up the owners. While they are robbing the place SW brutally kills the homeowners for no reason. Everyone panics. They grab the stuff and run. While they are fleeing they get chased by police. They panic and shoot at the police and manage to get away. SW threatens them to keep quite. When the police show up they all lie. They hide their knowledge. Then one of the neighbors gets up the courage to face SW. He calls SW out. He then picks up the phone to turn SW in. SW kills him. The others all run back to their houses. SW leaves.
Now, are the neighbors guilty? Yes, they are. They went in to do the original, lesser crime. And then after the fact they did help SW escape justice. Sure, they were all in a bad spot and afraid. But, they would be both accomplices during crime and after the fact. They did not plan on the brutal murder. Nor did they want it to happen. But they helped it. And that is kind of how the Horde acted with Sylvanas. They didn’t want things to go down the way it did. But, they did help it. So they do carry guilt for it.
But, lets revisit options those in the analogy would have. They could turn states evidence. By turning in SW and doing what they can to provide any information that would help SW be brought to justice, they could gain leniency. But, here is the thing key part. They would have to do something. They don’t get a free pass just for ‘not having directly done the worst crime.’ IMO, that is the situation the Horde is in. They are guilty for their part and the support they gave Sylvanas. But, they are not without the possibility for redemption and leniency. They just have to do something to earn it.
That is what we need to see. We need to see the Horde actively trying to make up for their part. We need to be shown that the Horde is really different. As long as we are just told the Horde is ‘really different’ this time, it means nothing. And people just saying, it is all Sylvanas and the Horde is good is just and attempt at whitewashing the Horde. It makes the Horde leaders look like they do not have a conscience of any kind. And there is no reason to believe they would not do it all over again…for the third time.
It was more me forgetting trying to commune with the fanbase on anything is a futile endeavor, i remembered when i woke up and saw the 300 replies notification.
The shock of Saurfang and even Nathanos suggests strongly the other way. Even Nathanos was surprised when she issued the order to burn Teldrassil to the ground.
This strongly suggests that nobody in the Horde actually believed the Horde was going to do what they did.
Hell, even Tyrande genuinely believed Sylvanas wouldn’t burn Teldrassil. It is the entire reason she spared Saurfang. Because she knew he’d make her people’s occupation tolerable.
I’ve already addressed this. Quotes from various Horde leaders tell us they viewed this as a matter of self preservation. They didn’t turn on her sooner because they were in the middle of a war that Sylvanas had ramped up to a struggle for survival rather than just a political gambit.
And in the end they did defy Sylvanas once they were able to organize something against her.
I know. Like I said, I can sympathize with his motives even if I condemn him for his actions. In the end he contributed to the environment that lead to the War of Thorns.
The entire reason the Horde turned on Sylvanas was because of moral disagreements with her. Saurfang left the Horde over Teldrassil and her behavior at Lordaeron. Baine left because of her plan to use Derek as a weapon.
It wasn’t about self preservation from the Horde’s perspective. If it was Baine would never had freed Derek because he knew his life would be forfeit if he did that.
Because the Horde is not a vassal state of the Alliance and should be capable of dulling out appropriate punishments to their own criminals.
That’s fine. You do you. But the reforms in the Horde government do demonstrate a desire for change. That is what is important. That they aren’t just going back to the exact same system that allowed Sylvanas to happen in the first place.
I dunno if I got everything. Sorry if I didn’t. You kind of shotgun replied to several different posts from me and mixed it in with a ton of other people’s posts so it was hard to edit through everything.
And yet they continued to support her once they realized how far she was willing to go. Whether or not they were surprised doesn’t change the fact that the Horde leaders continued to support her after Teldrassil.
They rebelled only once it was their own necks on the line. This has never truly been about honor. Which, I mean that’s whatever; not an issue, except for when people try to play this whole rebellion off as Saurfang ‘upholding the Horde’s honor’.
Neither Saurfang, nor Lor’themar, nor Baine, nor any of the others made any moves when it mattered, when the stakes were the highest (Teldrassil); they stood up to Sylvanas only once they realized that, yet again, they were in too deep, and now their own people are being targeted.
In MoP it was when Vol’jin was “assassinated”; in BFA it was when Sylvanas began turning on Horde leaders who didn’t agree with her methods (Baine @ Thunderbluff).
No one was protesting civilians being killed; they were objecting to things that make them uncomfortable because they could be next - E.G. Proudmoore.
I get Baine rebelling from a moral standpoint, because Baine has always had something akin to a moral compass; but Proudmoore’s torture scenario being what flipped his switch is just nuts to me.
An entire city full of innocent civilians and children
or
a single dead guy being tortured.
Which is worth starting a rebellion over?
And no, it’s not - you are correct. If we’re talking about a lack of justice though, this is an easy solution. Can’t give us Sylvanas? Nathanos? Any of the other leaders? Give over the loyalists who were 900%, all the chips in for genocide.
Of course though, the Alliance will be written with dulled teeth because we can’t possibly have them being “aggressors” in any obvious way, or wanting to get genuinely justice or revenge of any sort.
This whole expansion was such a huge let down on follow through and resolution; can’t wait for it to be over so I can avoid it forever.
Because they thought the Alliance would be on a war path and that their people would be in danger if they openly broke away from the Horde after such a massive event.
To say nothing of what they thought Sylvanas would do to them if they refused. Hint: She’d kill them.
This is just an incorrect reading of events. Saurfang tried to kill himself twice. After Teldrassil and then after Lordaeron. The only reason he didn’t? Because both times he was reminded that there are people in the Horde that don’t deserve to die.
Baine literally went against Sylvanas knowing full well she’d arrest and eventually execute him based solely on moral grounds.
Again, you’re reading the events in such a way that paints the Horde in the worst possible light.
Think of it more as the straw that broke the camel’s back. It wasn’t his main concern, but it was the thing that made him realize he couldn’t live with Sylvanas anymore.
I’d rather that Horde be presented as capable of handling their own in-house issues personally. I get you’re chomping at the bits for a taste of that sweet, sweet Horde blood because you want revenge, but it is better for the Horde narrative that it be depicted as self governing.
I’m reading events in the only light I’m able to; we know the characters rebel - but it’s when they rebel, and for what reason, that paints it in such a negative light.
I said I agreed with you on this; Baine is the only one who does or says anything of value against Sylvanas. Baine is the only one with any spine among the cast we saw.
Saurfang was just sitting there and winging about honor, and it’s very different from actually standing up to Sylvanas when it counted. Saurfang waited until the war had gotten so far out of control to do anything, when from the very get go he knew they were in trouble.
Why does he confront her at the tail end of the conflict, instead of at the beginning when he realizes and admits the Horde is in the wrong. He knew very well, even at Lordaeron, that he was firmly against her - and he was written to disregard every chance he had to confront her then and there.
I just think it’s ridiculous to give him credit where it isn’t due.
And this is accurate, but they literally end up doing this anyway at the end. It’s not like this is a brand new occurrence to them anyway. The Blood Elves sided with the Alliance to get rid of Garrosh - how is this any different?
Varian, who is tough as nails and hated the Horde, was willing to work beside them to get rid of Garrosh.
Varian’s son Anduin, who loves the Horde, has been fighting for peace for ages, and yet, for some reason, supposedly the Horde feels like they can’t rely on Anduin for shelter in exchange for betraying Sylvanas?
You’re definitely right, Sylvanas would go after them for betraying her Horde, but it’d be foolish to claim that these leaders don’t know Anduin’s reputation well enough to believe he would work with them - even after Teldrassil.
I get where you’re coming from, but I still stand on the hill that… if genocide isn’t the straw that breaks a camel’s back in the first place, you’ve got one messed up camel bro lmao.
I’d rather the Horde not be presented as genocidal megalomaniacs, but I guess neither of us get our wishes? I think it’s a long shot to expect that the Horde will hold its own accountable - especially Blizzard wants to on from this and they’re dropping loose ends left and right just to get away.
I really don’t care for sweet sweet Horde blood, I just really wish that the Alliance had been given some sense of justice rather than just getting peace and being told to move on. It’s downright insulting to everyone who was told this would be a ‘fist pumping’ expansion for the factions.
No you’re not. You’re reading into things that aren’t there. We have no statements from Lor’Themar, Baine, or anyone else that they are happy to serve Sylvanas after Teldrassil. We do have Baine being clearly upset at Lordaeron, the first time we see him after the fact, and then Baine telling us that he can’t abide by this war any longer when we talk to him about Derek.
Baine is admirable for being the first to say “enough is enough”. This does not mean Lor’Themar or Saurfang were okay with how Sylvanas was running things. It also does not mean Lor’Themar only rebelled when it was his neck on the line, which is your assumption.
See, this is what I mean when I say you’re interpreting things in the worst possible way.
What you call “winging about honor” I call having a psychological breakdown in which he literally tries to commit suicide twice.
The reason he didn’t act immediately is because his faith in himself and the Horde was shaken to its core. He talks about this later with Anduin when he admits that the very foundations of the Horde was rotten and built on a field of blood and bones.
You basically want to punish him for having a mental breakdown and crisis of faith.
You are saying the Horde should be punished for not self terminating sooner. Because from their perspective that is what rebelling at that time looked like.
The fact they opted to risk their lives and the lives of their people in a rebellion that, even with the aid of the Alliance, looked to be a losing battle speaks volumes about how determined they were that they couldn’t live with Sylvanas as warchief any longer.
Most of the Horde leadership don’t know Anduin as intimately as we do. Baine does, but Baine’s home city is also far, far, faaaar away from any Alliance aid and a quick zepplin ride from Orgrimmar.
It is unrealistic to assume the Alliance could have spared forces to offer protection to Thunder Bluff. Even during the rebellion we’re outright told that if the rebellion fails Thunder Bluff will burn.
Well unfortunately that is the narrative we’re given. Saurfang says very directly that he believes the Alliance will come for the Horde now.
And why wouldn’t he? Given his headspace for the War of Thorns was that Anduin has warmongers like Genn whispering in his ear that might lead them to attack the Horde later. If that is your stance before the war you’re definitely going to assume the Alliance is coming for blood after a massive tragedy like Teldrassil.
I think a total government reform is about as much as a nation can do to make sure this sort of thing doesn’t happen again.
I also don’t get why you don’t trust the Horde to punish their criminals when we see them in chains. We literally see them being punished. There’s no gray area here. You don’t need to worry about whether or not they’ll get punished because they actively are.
Oh I never said that they were happy, but they never outright refuse. That speaks volumes. For whatever reason, we’re not given any insights into many other characters’ mindsets regarding Teldrassil or anything else, really. It’s one of the major weak points of this expansion; there’s no clarity on where people stand.
We have nothing in game to support either claim - it’s just a logical presumption. Again, going back to the previous point, when Blizzard decides to not include dialogue to help explain where character’s are at, we’re left grasping for straws.
I would like for there to be true justice for an individual who planned and executed a war, and for all the supporters and advocates of it to be held accountable. On both sides.
Saurfang came out of this expansion being hailed as a hero, instead of someone who is responsible for initiating one of the bloodiest conflicts we’ve seen in game.
I hear you on the point of him having this crisis of faith, totally, but he also had enough sure footing to shout at Sylvanas in the flash back in the cutscene from Teldrassil. He is there, he clearly is aware of the stakes, and yet he lets her leave Darkshore unchallenged.
Issue Mok’gora there, right in that moment.
Saurfang is someone who stood against Garrosh, and even called him out countless times (most notably in Northrend) for barbaric behavior.
And now he has the chance to prevent someone from becoming the next butcher, and he fails to follow through.
You don’t get to start a war and then get off scot-free because you have second thoughts; but, because that’s what Blizzard thinks is A+ writing, of course he gets to start a war and then get off scot-free.
Again, going back to it - if someone supports a war from the get go, and then get cold feet halfway through - that is telling about them. It doesn’t make them a ‘good guy’ because they suddenly want to end the bloodshed.
Your willingness to concede does not absolve you of your past crimes.
Right and this is fair, sure. Not all Horde leaders know Anduin like Baine, but you don’t need to be buddy buddy to know his reputation. Stories of Pandaria and the War Crimes trial and yada yada - all of that spreads. While yes, we can’t be sure who knows what, and what rumors permeate the world about who, there’s really no basis for people to believe that Anduin isn’t a peace lover.
Maybe the Alliance couldn’t immediately shelter the Horde rebels, but they can certainly hold back from targeting them in future conflict while a rebellion grows. This is exactly what happened in MoP.
People will try to make every excuse for why the Horde couldn’t have rebelled earlier, and ultimately it comes down to: Blizzard wanted to shove this down our throats, come hell or high water. And they were willing to bend and twist lore, character personalities, and history, in order to do so.
Quote of the century right here.
The issue I have with it (and while I think yes, it’s good they’re in chains), is that they’re being punished for crimes against the Horde, not for crimes against the Alliance.
This would be like a guy robbing a store and then murdering someone. He gets away with the murder, but he gets a short prison sentence for the robbery.