Why isn’t war banner just a default ability for all 3 specs of warr? Why is it just a pvp talent for Arms?
I’m just saying other specs have much more utility(Cough RET PALADIN Cough), why not allow warrior to bring a bit more of team utility to the fold? Warr is fun, sure, but it just feels too “narrow” sometimes.
Could someone explain why this would be OP? I don’t think it would be, but I’m open to a rationale, maybe I’m missing something.
Continuing the trend that all fury warriors want is to be arms warriors.
Both arms and fury have two of the lowest skill floors in the game and are generally seen as on par with a DH, difficulty wise. It’s hilarious when people who generally play more arms, they wear the 'Arms Main" as a badge of pride and act snide about it like they’re playing a shadow priest. Congrats bro, you(arms) are the kid who can scribble on paper and maybe write his name in all capital letters, instead of the kid drooling on himself in the corner(Fury).
and your solution is to completely homogenize all three specs?
How is taking a single pvp talent that offers good utility homogenizing specs? You don’t think war banner fits thematically with all 3 specs? War banner probably fits in best with Prot Warrior. There’s nothing that screams arms about it, and even when I play arms, I would rather it be baseline ability and not a pvp talent.
I’m saying the focus of warr is very narrow and I know that it’s not supposed to be like a hybrid like a Shaman, Paladin, Priest,etc., but having a cool ability that offers CC reduction in a time when the game has crazy CC(especially micro CC) doesn’t strike me as “homogenizing all three specs”.
/shrug
I would rather see arms and fury do more to differentiate themselves from one another.
But hey, if you want two specs that are indistinguishable from each other aside from damage profile, I guess that’s fair and valid or whatever.
What would you have in mind to distinguish them more though? I’m not opposed to that, I just think warr doesnt seem like it brings enough to the table sometimes and war banner is a cool ability that adds a dimension. So it’s really more about making warr have another dimension too it, and not just feeling like a mindlesss zugfest.
If you made war banner baseline for arms( I would like that), what could you do for fury that makes it not be a 1 trick pony(at least as much)?
From a PvE perspective, probably because it would infringe upon similar group movement speed effects brought by Shaman and Druids.
If you mean why it isn’t a PvP talent available to all three, idk, probably just an effort to differentiate the specs.
Man, this is getting way more involved than I intended when I made my first silly half-joking comment.
So this is kind of an odd angle to approach the topic from because damage spec trees are almost entirely about damage profile, while general trees are where the bulk of utility is contained. A lot of the spec defining utility comes in the form of pvp talents.
When you’re talking about utility for pve, but then you’re asking about spec specific utility ideas, it kind of redirects the discussion to framing it around pvp talents.
Idk, I’d say bladestorm is a lot more then just damage, its a major anti-cc ability and its in the damage tree for arms, and will be in the damage tree for fury in ‘TWW’. Somebody could make the same argument, that giving Fury back bladestorm makes both specs even more similar again. They could have built Fury more around the pvp talent bloodrage for mobility and anti-cc, instead of going back to bladestorm to differentiate.
Don’t care about PvE. Thats out of my element, should have mentioned that in op.
Yuh…I think warriors, especially Fury, need a bit more of a “wider” kit. I just brought up war banner because I just think it’s a useful ability that fits the warrior class in general and allows the warrior to add a bit more, instead of just zugging.
People talk about Fury being a mindless gorilla button masher class that doesn’t offer much, and then when you bring up ideas(even bland or uncreative ones) to expand Fury’s usefulness, even just a tiny bit, they shut it down or act snarky.
Which is precisely why fury warriors consistently clamor to basically just play arms. Hence Lugo’s original point.
Warriors keep asking for more utility and just get some random 2 second aoe stun or something thrown their way.
I don’t know all these fury warriors who “constantly clamor” to be arms, you goofs have it backwards. I play arms mostly because they set it up as the default pvp spec: baseline mortal strike, sharpen blade, bladestorm, war banner, duel, etc. I get tired of playing arms and like the fluidness and playstyle of fury…but its a stripped down 1 dimensional spec that they left on the operating table. Even arms needs more utility, but fury is noticeably bad.
People don’t want to be just stuck playing arms when it comes to pvp, they’re asking for more options. It’s not dipstick furies desperately wishing they could be arms. Stop sniffing your own farts
Yeah…that’s why we continue to make posts about expanding the class beyond steroid, crayon eating status.
lol cry about it
“I don’t have a retort, so ill say cry about it like a vag.” K bro.
I don’t disagree. Which is why I specifically said “almost entirely”. But the vast majority of non-throughput talents are in the general tree for every non-healer or tank spec in the game come from the general tree / pvp talents.
But also the pvp talents system is an archaic one that is very limited next to the DF talent tree redesign.
Alright. I wasn’t really sure and kind of assumed you were coming at this from a mythic+ perspective because more often than not, that is what people are talking about on here. GLAD WE’RE ON THE SAME PAGE LOL.
I know it’s not arena viable, but at least fury has death wish which does a lot of heavy lifting for helping differentiate it from arms in casual pvp.
If you haven’t looked through it yet, this thread from a couple weeks ago goes into pretty granular detail about just how lacking the warrior general tree is compared to other classes. It’s also been a big point of discussion in the war within beta warrior thread. It’s primarily from the perspective of PvE, but is still very applicable to PvP. The TLDR is that all warrior specs are hurting for utility.
It’s also worth noting that war banner is almost never actually used in high end pvp. We’re pretty much locked in to the same three options, and only really swap them out (usually swapping out battlefield commander) if we REALLY need disarm or safeguard.
Fury is actually similarly locked in to the same pvp talents. They have their own comparable healing debuff (lower % but with more uptime and still one of the stronger healing reductions in the game), storm of destruction, and battlefield commander.
I’m not really sure if it’s bugged or what currently on beta, but I believe we are are supposed to be able to intervene spells again. And I am praying every night that we’ll be able to intervene + reflect spells like we used to.
Yeah. Trying to have an honest discussion about class design in this game can be miserable.
We did get some spicy pvp talents midway through this expansion, which was pretty nice. I would really like champion spear to 1) work and 2) remove the damage component and place it somewhere in the middle of the tree so it’s not competing with more reliable options. Also less throughput and more utility in the general tree would still be cool, especially when looking at something like mage general tree lol.
They aren’t stuck as arms though. The general consensus atm is that fury is the stronger spec (though not far enough ahead for everyone to just drop what they are doing and go all in on fury). The problem is that warrior is so lacking in the first place that people basically play whichever spec is tuned to do more damage. What meaningful utility we do have is already shared between specs.
c’mon guys. Let’s hug.
I’m willing to if he/she is. (Tears in eyes) Everyone knows fury warrs have an inferiority complex, I dont expect other warrs to try and grind us down, supposed to be the ones to pick us up. Supposed to bring us to the front of the short bus, explain to us we’re not supposed to eat crayons and inhale all the fumes at the back of ther bus. It just hurts, that’s all.
Person 1: That spec is a total joke, absolutely brain dead. It takes no skill. Brings nothing to the table utility wise.
Person 2: So lets talk about ways we can fix it/improve and make it have more depth and not so braindead and stupid.
Person 1: “YOUR A MORON AND HAVE NO IDEA HOW THE GAME WORKS, HOW BALANCE WORKS OR WHAT CLASS DESIGN IS. KEEP CRYING NOOB! L2P A REAL SPEC. YOU WISH YOU COULD PLAY A MORE SKILLED SPEC LOLOL LMAO”
It sounds exaggerated, but that is literally a pretty close rendition to what I’ve seen when people talk about reworking specs and the crap you get when bringing up possible changes.
Your first post was like a single line joke., but this whole response is great. It’s more of what I’m looking for. I can’t articulate the issues with warrior the way you can. That’s why it’s frustrating because I know there’s something that needs improving but I can’t put my finger on it the way more experienced warriors can. That thread you linked to is also great(also what I’m looking for).
I mostly play healer(resto Shaman main) but warrior is the only dps alt I really bother to play and the only dps I’ve gotten past 1800 in arena in DF. So granted, I’m not the best or most experienced warr. There really is something to the stereotype of the angry warrior main though lol. You talk to warrior mains from the perspective of a healer and say "You guys need some additional utility, there’s a deficit there. “F#$% off, we don’t need your charity, warr is fine”(crosses arms).
I was being reductionist and bland by just talking about war banner. The post should have been more about what your describing here. More of an in depth analysis how warr lacks the depth of other classes. The general warrior tree just feels sparse/lacking. It almost feels like warrior has 2 damage trees tbh. But again, I don’t really have enough experience on warr to do an in depth analysis. I just play it, have fun for a bit, but eventually become frustrated that it feels so 1-dimensional. Intervene doesn’t cut it. It’s also the fact that a spec like resto shaman is the opposite though, so im biased. When you play Rsham, you feel like you can really make a difference in terms of effecting how the match plays out.
It’s just frustrating when people shut it down and say “Warr is supposed to be simple.” I mean yeah, its not supposed to be an Spriest or an Ele Shaman, doesnt mean it can bring some more team utility to the game.
I could be wrong because it’s been so long, maybe its nostalgia, but I remember warr in the MoP era feeling amazing. I remember it feeling like it had much more depth to it, a much more “whole” feeling to it. Like I said, it could be because I was just a kid back then.
Yeah, I guess this sums it up. I’ll let the veteran warrs preach and say their peace from now on. I hope the devs eventually listen. I’ve been in groups where people say “What’s the point of bringing a warr when we can just get a Ret Paladin.” I mean seriously, Ret Paladin has good burst, off healing, great utility. Warr has better sustained damage I guess, but overall doesn’t bring as much to the table as other dps specs.
Anyway, thanks for the in depth response. I appreciate it.