Those are good reasons against it. Like I said in my post, I don’t think they’ll take her that way but she is the best candidate for it. I think they’re going to put racism and the faction war on the back burner to give us time to cool off, but I don’t think they’ll ever be completely done with it even though it doesn’t make much sense anymore.
1 Like
Oh, that had to do with that you and I have had fundamentally different stances on lore that we droned on and on for months back in Cataclsym - your stance being about presentation and mine being about written lore - and that was a dead horse of disagreement that I did not want to drum on again while you’re back.
Though on this we also disagree. The rated PvP matches I’ve done to earn the three Warsaber mounts have had me pitted against Alliance teams same as Horde teams, and Blizzard’s esports pushes are the same. Even War Mode would work just as well, if not better, as some sort of Anarchy Mode where it’s a free-for-all like in the various areas in the game for that already.
But thank you for taking the time to read my ramblings then. I appreciate it.
2 Likes
Regarding your second paragraph (as I have little to add to the first. 
) - I will say that mercenary mode and similar mechanics have irked me since they were put in the game. I want the PVP mechanic to be tied in with the lore of the faction conflict - and I certainly don’t want Blizzard to be using escape valves like that instead of considering ways to balance the factions.
2 Likes
Balance problems are actually why I would prefer the factions to be dissolved. Gameplay wise it would be mechanically far better, in my opinion, if everyone could just play together instead of things like “Oh. I want to play an Alliance main, but all my friends are playing Horde, so I’m kind of forced into it.”
2 Likes
Which is where, yes, I feel that our positions can’t be reconciled. I don’t feel that answer is enough for me to say that PVP should lose its lore and RP basis, or that we should end a rivalry that’s been going on since the franchise started.
At any rate, great talking to you again. 
Lotta weird projecting going on in this thread. This is a fictional video game and we should be treating it as such, instead of saying I am a war orphan from Atlantis therefore X Y Z take on the lore LORD help me.
10 Likes
That’s kind of you to say. I hope you enjoy your stay while you’re with us again.
Not really I think the bear analogy works, I mean the few orcs we could be claimed as good are more like 1 in 1000. It would like one bear(thrall) being trained to be friendly and is known to be approachable however that doesn’t mean bears in the wild should be approached.
Blizzard needs to demonstrate that the horde as a whole has changed that they don’t fit the more common stereotype of attacking without provocation. They can’t keep just showing us thrall who has never really represented the horde and has always been different and keep claiming that the horde has changed.
Even now the writing has Thrall wanting nothing to do with the horde. He literally went to another world with his family to get away from it.
1 Like
Tyrande made the claim - before giving Thrall the out to bring Sylvanas’ head instead - that she wouldn’t forgive the Horde until the Night Elves as a whole came to honestly believe the Horde had changed - though of course Tyrande put it in the most aggressive way she could out of her anger, involving the imagery of kissing feet.
But beyond Horde players getting to save the Night Elf Souls from the Maw and Torghast, I doubt Blizzard would actually show this in game.
Their closest chance would having lines about how the Horde is doing volunteer work all over Kalimdor to try to make amends for Sylvanas’ war in the upcoming World of Warcraft: Exploring Azeroth: Kalimdor book, but I’m more dreading what that book could contain because of its cover rather than being optimistic for it.
You can’t really compare orcs to bears because they are people but if you insist it would be more like: bears are suddenly discovered in the wild, having never been before, but they’re all on demon blood but no one knows it. The demon blood makes them aggressive and people learn to avoid them. Then suddenly they sober up and are actually just like people.
Obviously there’s a lot more to their story that gives more differences from “domesticated” bears.
Who do you think made the Horde? Are you familiar with the story pre Cata?
The Alliance has always had some racist element to it. Just look at the ambassador who greet the allied races. He makes subtle digs against void elves, Mechagnomes and dark irons.
The thing about the Alliance is most of them do manage to rise about said racism and have slowly learned to put aside those differences.
2 Likes
You clearly did not play Warcraft 1-2. The Alliance was not villain batter sans maybe Medivh but he was under the control of a demon or Peranolde who was a coward who sided with the Hordr.
1 Like
Here is the exact reason why Thrall is different, ill quote you
Thrall never had that, never understood it. Yet let out all the previous horde took them to a far off land and expected them to just play nice with the locals like he does.
Even then Blizzard have shown little difference in the old horde on demon blood and the current one without it. Both are extremely violent and commit warcrimes.
Thrall has always been the outlier, Grom as soon as landling on Kalimdor violently attacked the Alliance and the Night elves even drunk the demon blood again. Not to mention as soon as thrall left the Horde again they went to war with the Alliance immediately.
Thrall can’t always lead the Horde and they can’t keep using him as the only good orc. As this means that the rest are the monsters they are seen to be. This also is exacerbated by the fact that they ruined the legacy of saurfang by making him join another genocidal war and then get killed while really have no orcs to replace him.
While I’ll agree that Garrosh was just evil, Grom was still under the affects of the demon blood and wasn’t made listless because he remained free from the internment camps. I also can’t use Saurfang as an example after the start of BfA and would prefer to forget they destroyed his character.
I’ll concede that Thrall is the only orc leader to be, what I would call, pretty much stainless; however, there are plenty of side characters that show that orcs aren’t monsters: Mother Geyah, Drek’thar, Durotan, Drakka, Eitrigg, and Dranosh off the top of my head. Then if you quest or interact with orc civilians you see that many of them are just normal people.
I won’t deny that the orcs have done horrible things in the past but to say that they continue to be depicted as all monsters with the exception of Thrall is disingenuous.
3 Likes
I agree with you however that is not what the Alliance sees, we see most orcs as overtly hostile and attacks them on sight without provocation. Thrall is the only one they are introduced to that is stays his hand and thew few others you are mentioned are either dead or too old.
There needs to be development of new orcs that break the cycle that shows the Alliance and other races of Azeroth that there is something more to them than overly violent creatures. Even if they direct the Violence towards the threats to azeroth instead of races of the world.
How about a new squad on Kor’kron trained by Etrigg that show up as an elite fighting force trained to fight other worldly threats like demons and the void. that have an oath to never lift the weapon against a fellow member of azeroth.
I say that’s good. That’s exactly what we see in that BfA quest where we look for Saurfang. And I actually liked that. I agree with Baal, inject Alliance with more racism, it fits.
No, keep the vialence, do not turn monster races into Green Humans. Don’t make the violence senseless, direct it onto “mutual enemies”, but keep the “savage” flavour.
We were talking about the orcs from a meta perspective, not solely from the point of view of the average member of the Alliance. If we were though, I would disagree. The Alliance has shown that they can interact with orcs without attacking them on site many times and with some of those characters I mentioned.
I agree that their needs to be new orcs introduced though, especially one to serve as a racial leader as Thrall is too neutral to the story to represent the orcs as a people.
It’s less that - to me, anyways- that someone wants the Alliance villain batted, but the original cause of their conflicts is being gradually eroded by a story that puts the Alliance at the constant moral high ground and invalidates the grievances of the faction, as well sets the groundwork for “good vs evil”. The original reason as to why this all started is all but lost and oftentimes seems pointless to hold this conflict.
And yes, I agree whole-heartedly that the faction conflict is detrimental to the health of the game and serves no other purpose than to stir up toxic tribalism. I dislike it and don’t think the current team has the stuff to actually do anything with it.
I do agree that Orcs need at least two more story characters, but I’m not sure where Thrall being neutral comes from, given that he has a long and documented history of throwing down with the Alliance. He might be level headed and can discern between a time for words and a time for action, but, I don’t think he’s neutral. Not after his head-to-head fights with Varian and the Alliance proper.
1 Like
Yeah. As I discussed with Banuka, the story at this point has had the Alliance see the better side of the Horde even when it feels like they shouldn’t so many times that it’s not believable that the Alliance would ever really try to antagonize the Horde.
Though, for Thrall, he is cheering for Anduin’s rescue at this very moment. And really, one of the saddest things about Thall and Tyrande’s (and Malfurion’s) encounter in Shadows Rising was that they all used to be friends. They even attended each other’s weddings.
I agree that he’s not neutral and I should have thought of a different word, it’s nearly 5 am here and I can’t sleep so I’m making it worse by trying to think on the forums. I meant he’s more of a main character of the over all story. He also remains a good representation of the values the Horde holds. He’s just not a good representation of orcish culture despite his shamanism. He would make a great warchief again and one that I wouldn’t fear they would butcher in the expansion after next.