There has only once character who was outwardly racist and that was Garithos and he hardly represents the Alliance at all. Most other characters who have had anything harsh to say about a horde race are generally in reaction to horde crimes. Even then Horde characters are some times more racist towards the alliance.
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Ignoring the above poster because that’s so etherally dumb and wrong lmao
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They don’t need to make the Alliance just as bad because they’re all about getting reactions, and people react to the things the Alliance does already with the same visceral emotion as people react to the things the Horde does. I mean, there are people, in part rightfully so, who are tired of seeing all the posts about the Burning, after two years. An event where at minimum 900 or so civilians were burned alive because someone who was a Horde leader at the time had a hissy fit. But, it’s been talked about to death, right? No sense in way more threads.
The Purge of Dalaran happened in November of 2012.
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It doesn’t seem likely, I agree. On the topic of what flaws the Alliance could have, something we all agree is desirable: I’d say their vengeance hungry leaders is a flaw. And Jaina’s crimes can’t be ignored but if we’re looking at this from a meta perspective like we will the faction war, I’m afraid Blizzard’s sweeping all that under the rug.
Yes. That Genn:
- “I believe in the Light,” Genn stated. “I’ve seen it, benefited from it, so I have to. But I’ve never really felt it. I couldn’t feel it from Faol. I just saw what I viewed as a gut-wrenching travesty—an old friend, dead, animated like some sort of joke. Spouting things that couldn’t possibly be true.
“And then he said something that was true. Too true. It cut like a blade, and I couldn’t bear that.”
Genn took a deep breath. “But he was right. You were right. I still think what was done to the Forsaken against their will was horrifying. But it’s clear to me now that some of them haven’t been broken by it. Some of them are still the people they once were. So I was wrong, and I apologize.”
“If you ask me, the Desolate Council signed their own death warrants simply by existing as a governing body. She’d have done something to them sooner or later. Their ghosts, if Forsaken can have ghosts, won’t haunt you, my boy. You did something wonderful for them.”
Now Anduin did turn to Greymane, looking him full in the eye. “Answer me this: Would it have been enough for you, Genn? To see your son one more time and pay for that one encounter with your life?”
The question was utterly unexpected, and for a moment Genn was taken aback. Old pain shot through him, and he tightened his jaw. He didn’t want to answer, but there was something in the youth’s face that would not let the older man refuse.
“Yes,” he said at last. “Yes. It would have.”
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Then lets say the Horde doesn’t have to be villain batted any more.
Because no, I’m not willing to hit the Alliance with any bat. Nor should the Horde have to be, either.
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And what better fuel for consistent vengeance victim narratives than racist paranoia
One seen doesn’t unmake years of characterization when his first reaction was still to run away. Musing in private with Anduin means nothing until it translates to visible action in the narrative.
Delusional, unwilling to have a flaw in your faction, just Mary Sue Brain crap. Sad really.
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Cool name another.
The argument that the Alliance needs to go all racist to start a war is stupid and out of character. The Alliance has plenty grudges that needs settling, People who want their homes back that the horde are living in, Wanting the security of knowing that the horde aren’t a threat any more. it has many reasons to want the Horde gone it doesn’t need to go all racist to achieve that.
I get Horde players want a reason to fight the Alliance but they don’t need to simply go out of character to achieve that. They simply need to show the Alliance as provoking the horde by expanding and trying to force the horde out of lands or making unreasonable demands. Have the Alliance attack when the Horde refuses to concede and hold the moral high ground as the Alliance tries to move them out.
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Musings in private with Anduin have actually shown Genn has significantly changed and is for all practical purposes a completely separated character from who he was written as in Warcraft II, given Genn went from “Screw the Alliance. Build the wall” to “We will never abandon the Night Elves because of the kindness they have shown us” and sticking to his words even when Anduin of all people didn’t.
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Ad hominem at worst, and indulgent in pessimism at best.
Though of course I also don’t put any merit into an edgier story you’re looking for in this game.
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“But it wasnt like garrosh you see because he was a man and sylvanas is a woman, see? totally different! and you dont defeat her in a raid, in orgrimmar, she just takes off at orgrimmar 2.0 kickstarting the plot of SL INSTEAD of WoD, see? different!”
Rogers fits the bill, genn did however he was changed on BtS so he is now more reasonable.
At the end what they want is really to feel they have a case to stand up for the horde, to feel justified on attacking us and for that we need to be a threat which btw should be encouraged but not like blizzard so blatantly tried to do on bfa and failed spectacularly.
Have fun with your perfect moralistic high ground with zero flaws while you vaguely hope blizzard stop villain batting the Horde and send your thoughts and prayers that we get through it lmao
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I mean, it worked back in the day like I said but not anymore with the exception of Tyrande. She would work as a racist but not the whole Alliance and I doubt they’ll take her that way. I think having the Alliance falling apart at the seams due to several loose-canons would make for a good flaw, after all, they are supposed to be fully autonomous nations.
Please refer to the multiple threads about Jaina in regards to there being a need for an Alliance villain. Jaina is flat out reviled in many cases and she’s… well, Jaina.
Moreover, racism in WoW doesn’t really work all that well. There are no races but literally, different species, and what those races have done is genuinely beyond simply putting aside, but it’s not… really racism. Racism is inherently illogical, it has little in the way of grounded morality or thought, and it by and large is often directed at races or people who have done nothing in truth to the other party.
Orcs are called Blackbloods, draenei bluebloods, but… they literally have blood that colour. Same as greenskins… they have green skin. Blood Elves mock Night Elves for being closer to Trolls, while the reverse has the Night Elves mocking the Blood Elves for their mana addiction, but these are all things that have happened and did happen.
Orcs do have bloodrage and are warlike, Dwarves like shiny rocks, Night Elves are nocturnal, Forsaken are the product of unholy magic… the only time we’ve seen an actual human supremacist with actual discrimination that was illogical and more in tune with real world racism was… Garithos, who was a human supremacist and didn’t like other Alliance races either.
The solution isn’t villain-batting the Alliance with one-dimensional flaws, it’s bringing the Horde back to Wrath era themes, where they were clearly different from the Alliance but also weren’t defined by their antagonism with them.
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- Baine Bloodhoof says: Anduin? I had thought my end had come...
Thrall says: It almost did, were it not for this champion.
Baine Bloodhoof says: Then you have my eternal gratitude, <name>.
Winter Queen says: I cannot say what fate will befall you, Vol’jin of the Darkspear. But I offer you this chance to one day be reborn anew.
Spirit of Vol’jin says: I be deeply honored, ya majesty. <Name>, thank ya for all ya done for me… in life, and in death.
Thrall says: Then we must remain patient. Maw Walker, continue your efforts to undermine the Jailer’s cause.
Thrall says: When the time comes, we will find Anduin… and bring him home.
I am having quite a lot of fun with it, yes. I do hope it continues indeed.
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Let’s jump from this point.
Let’s assume that I really am a Night Elf, and after BFA I encounter an Orc. I know nothing about this person other than what I can see. What I do know is that people like him invaded my country three or four times in the past twenty years, probably killed some of my friends and family, and generally did not take prisoners. The last war was a war of extermination.
So do I trust that Orc? No, and that is racist. I am making assumptions about that person based on factors that said person has no control over, and if I’m armed, those assumptions will lead to either his death or mine. I’m not thinking about whether he agreed with the policy or not - I don’t trust him enough to have a conversation about it. It’s him or me.
You can say that you might be able to pick out the reasons for that, but it’s still a moral failing - and at this point, it’s about the most reasonable go-to moral failing there is, and the one that would make the most sense in the current narrative. Tyrande has already gone part of the way down this road, stating that the Horde is a beast - in context of it not mattering who rides it, as eventually it will bite. That’s understandable, but it is also a sentiment fueled from racial paranoia.
So, there’s potential to work in a flaw, a flaw that Horde players can critique and fight against, but also one that Alliance players would be compelled to defend. I don’t see issues with that as someone who does want to see a narrative basis for PVP content.
Now, I understand that you don’t - you said as much in your opening post. You don’t see eye to eye with me, which is why probably why, per your earlier statement, that you didn’t want to engage in a discussion with me - but the faction rivalry has been a part of the franchise since its inception, PVP has been in WoW since ITS inception, and I don’t feel that from a story perspective, it makes sense to either leave that side out in the cold, or try to ramrod their themes through a PVE framework. That requires strong motivations on both sides - and I think the point being made here is that the Alliance having a strong narrative flaw helps the Horde to have motivation to participate.
That mentioned - thank you for sharing your initial post. I can’t imagine that doing such could have been comfortable, especially in the face of criticism. I appreciated getting to understand your perspective just a little bit more.
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I don’t think it will work with Tyrande, either. We already went this route with Val’sharah, after all. Tyrande was still upset at the Horde because of Garrosh’s war, but still came to work with the Horde player - and despite resentment towards how she was written in Legion’s beta, the writing for Tyrande that made it to live is remarkably tame.
Likewise, with Horde players as much as Alliance ones inevitably saving Tyrande, too, if the Night Fae players get to, then we’ll probably see her forgive the Horde as well.
Especially when she’s basically already given the Horde a clean out in placing everything on Sylvanas and saying what she wants is the Horde to go after her - when they already were.
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A night elf not trusting an orc can’t really be categorized as racism, orcs have been sentient woodchippers with axes and a love of red clothing since they encountered the night elves. It would be like calling being afraid of a bear in the woods racism. Yes, there is a chance that the bear will put on a funny hat and dance for me before carrying me to safety, but past experience will tell me this is a low chance.
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An Orc isn’t a bear though - and I could call such a comparison racist in itself. We’ve seen Orcish engineers, mages, shaman. We’ve seen good orcs and bad orcs, intelligent orcs and dumb orcs. Orcs that reveled in killing - others who would give their life to stop it.
And - it is completely believable that our hypothetical Night Elf would ignore all of that on the basis of their prior experience. This could be a guy who actually fought against Sylvanas, AND Garrosh, and took Thrall’s side against Grom. Doesn’t matter - him or me.
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I honestly just wanted to use an analogy of a bear in a funny hat in some way. Carry on.
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