Saying its on their radar doesnt mean they are invalid reasons. On top of that the majority of people complaining about it tend to not be very good.
Also the Council is literally worthless.
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Want me to get my buddy whos 3500 + to come tell you that your opinion means nothing because you are only 3k?
Glad to see all sensible discussion on this topic has all but evaporated and left behind a sticky residuum of arguments over semantics. Get a grip people.
In my personal experience with 12-15 keys, the most often time people leave a key is when the first pull is botched, as it generally is when Lust/Hero and other CDs are used. I’ve been in a more than a couple groups that have managed to pull through a rough start and go on to time or even +2 those runs. Sadly most of the time people just give up and, poof! the key is bricked just like that.
The issue is that all the risk of penalty (key degradation) is only on the key holder, and those that join have zero risk. So it means nothing to them to just walk away.
There are a few ways this could be fixed:
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Get rid of key degradation entirely as many people have been asking for a long time.
I don’t see blizz doing this as they have stated they do want some sort of penalty for not being able to time runs. -
If a dungeon is not completed then everyone in the party’s key is degraded, adding a much needed risk factor to everyone besides just the key holder. This could help dissuade people from leaving so quickly into a run.
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Simply adding a 30 min timer that disallows people from starting a new dungeon after key is started. The 30 timer would just be removed once dungeon is completed. (similar to how RDF works).
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Yea, you favor literal reading vs common sense reading. I get it.
Strikes me as common sense. 
I’m saying you’re talking about a coordinated effort to take you “hostage” in a video game like its a normal thing.
Tldr: it’s a team game… You can go in circles and fish for answers all you like, but that’s the bottom line.
It's understandable to feel frustrated when someone unprepared affects the group's chances of success. However, part of team-based activities involves supporting and helping each other. Additionally, using tools like raider.io can help better vet group members before starting a run, minimizing the chances of encountering unprepared players.
No, carrying lfr vs carrying mythic is not the same thing. A host of complexities make up that difference; social dynamic, strategy, group composition, etc.
In context to the reply, I was addressing the fact that you seem to gloss over the differences that change the weight of “carry.” Sure, conceptually carry has one meaning, but in a practical sense, you and I aren’t even playing the same game.
There are more outcomes than that.
No, absurd is when you try to apply a blanket definition to things that take on multiple meanings in an effort to bog down and control the narrative in an online forum while espousing borderline conspiracy nonsense.
I think it means they acknowledge it’s there. And I can’t say I’m a fan of the council ether-- but they also havent done anything horrible, so-- 
Ask him if he is afraid of a low ilvl band of wayward of vulpera from Moon Guard tricking him into entering the Stockades, where they hold him hostage in the face of a leaver penalty, and force him to obey their orders.
While this is true, it runs into the problem that’s been at the crux of this post, at least when people haven’t derailed it to argue their IO or semantics at least. As much of a problem as key leaving is for some, being able to leave with impunity keeps other forms of trolling and toxicity at bay. Someone who joins a key they aren’t capable of performing in, either intentionally or accidentally, can’t monopolize 4 other player’s time who were expecting a run where the entire party is pulling their own weight. Players can’t intentionally throw as a way to make their teammates’ experience during that key worse for jollies. Players can’t immediately throw insults at their teammates because they think it’s funny.
The fact that any player can leave at any time means these issues are far less common than they would be otherwise. By adding a penalty for leaving, this creates an environment where innocent players will be faced with the choice of incur the penalty or stay in a group they aren’t going to have fun with solely because someone else is making a choice that makes their experience worse.
Then to make matters worse, if I am able to make someone else leave in less time than the penalty I would incur by leaving, the strictly dominant strategy for me once the group is no longer going to suit my needs is to become that terrible teammate to force someone else out. It will be impossible to distinguish me intentionally playing poorly from someone who is just simply not up to par for the level of content that we’re doing, so it won’t even be clear that I did it intentionally were someone to report me for that. This would make the problem even worse.
I’m not opposed to the idea that leaving willy nilly should incur a penalty to discourage players from doing it; it certainly is a problem in WoW today. The problem is that every suggested approach to try to limit its frequency would come with this collateral damage that would make the problem far worse for all key levels. I can fully empathize with players in that 12 - 15 range you talked about having keys blow up at the first pull frequently despite the key likely still being timeable, but in more than 1,000 PUG keys run just below that range, random players leaving has just simply not been that big of a problem in those ranges. This idea might improve things for 12 - 15, but would make things considerably worse for basically every other range where far more players are playing.
Viewing key degradation as a penalty is a mistake, because it actually serves a different purpose entirely. Probably the single biggest accomplishment of the M+ system is its ability to self-regulate the difficulty for most groups. Players, especially within consistent groups, do not need to guess at what difficulty is appropriate for them at any time. They can keep running the key they just ran as it naturally inflates and deflates based on their result. As soon as they reach a level they can’t time, they get knocked down a level to where they demonstrated they can succeed.
Removing depletion would get rid of this major benefit. I wouldn’t be opposed to some kind of charge system for depletion to help protect against the random troll leaving. But removing it outright would cause more harm than good.
Speaking of harm, we also have to consider the ways such a system could be abused. That style of first pull you described in a 12 - 15 would become far more common especially amongst premade groups because there would be no reason not to; teams would start with massive pull after massive pull until they get one that succeeds since they can always reset without issue.
More problematic though will be players getting carried to a level they can’t perform in and then have that level of key the rest of the season. Players will wind up with potatoes of a group leader for more often as a result.
Both of these run into the issues I was talking about in the first segment.
You not only accused me of believing the article simply because I was trying to correct the lie you told about it, but also went even further by trying to claim when I think it is willful sabotage. At no point did I say willful sabotage requires chat, just that the policy stated in what you posted is that chat is required to report for that flavor of sabotage. This is a far cry from me being overly pedantic by taking words strictly literally when they very possibly intended to carry deeper meaning.
Where have I said it would be a coordinated effort? Please quote a single time where I’ve said that.
But only in one direction. I can’t hold accountable the player that underperforms in a level of content to the point where the group is unlikely to succeed as a result.
Did I say it was the same thing? Again, please quote one time where I’ve said this.
You have yet to articulate what those differences are.
Like what?
Can you quote one time where I have done that, especially in relation to the topic of what constitutes a carry?
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You’re not making an argument based in reason; you’re nitpicking semantics and using circular logic to try and force a toxic narrative (a borderline conspiracy theory) that focuses on an overly narrowed scope to the point that it has no basis in reality. Furthermore, supporting experience that runs counter to your claim is immediately dismissed for the purpose of pursuing your stated narrative.
Pointing out that Blizzard can track disruptive behavior is not a lie-- And based on what the CM said, they have, under some circumstance or another, considered the act you are defending as such.
You looked at the words in the article verbatim, and applied a rigid understanding that implied a leaver would have to say something in chat to be considered in violation… And if that wasn’t your intent, then I honestly have no idea what your point was there.
I think this was your first post… You’ve been at this a while. lol
“You’re literally just saying word A means word A.”
I wouldn’t have thought the need to spell out the difference between two groups doing a +2 vs a +20.
One example? Someone explains what went wrong, and the mage knows not to stand outside Wratheye’s area a second time, and you kill the boss at that point.
“Trying to imply that someone cannot carry someone else in a given level because you deem the capability of that player to be below some arbitrary threshold is absurd.”
Carrying takes on a completely different meaning when used in lfr vs CE raiding, and your insistence that some group of malicious vagabonds are going to put you into slave labor and force you to clear dungeons (possibly multiple ones) for them is silly.
Show me one example of this. You’re literally accusing me of what you’ve done every response to me.
Saying the linked article indicates they can is a lie.
The article prescribes what you should do in a specific use case, and the conditions include someone indicating sabotage in chat. That doesn’t mean there isn’t another policy that covers times when no chat is made. You don’t get to just make up your own policy on Blizzard’s behalf because what they posted doesn’t say what you want it to say.
Does that post say that I think every group will do that? I was using an example that will happen with a penalty applies. At no point does that post say or imply that every player that wants to troll is going to form organized groups.
You made a post with the words of “carrying is carrying” and apparently expected me to be able to correctly identify what definition of carry you wanted to use in each case.
That’s simply not what my argument is, though. Both levels can have underperformers; and if there are underperformers in each, the key either fails or one or more players overperform to make up the slack. That says nothing about the scaling, affixes, or populations that will inhabit either level, which is what is different between the two.
Sure, and many people like myself will try to correct that behavior. But sometimes the player doesn’t improve and continues to screw things up. When I talk about underperforming, I am referring to across the entire key, not single pulls. And if someone underperforms the average requirement to complete a key, the only options are what I have described.
It takes a markedly different approach to carry in LFR as it does in mythic raid, absolutely. That’s also completely unrelated to a leaver penalty in M+.
In both cases though, nothing in what I was saying was getting into the dynamics of what it requires to carry one difficulty versus the other. Just that it’s possible for players to be carried in nearly all difficulties and having no penalties makes it easier for someone expecting a carry to find one without the group being specifically assembled to carry them.
Why is it silly? What would be the incentive for someone to NOT apply to every key at any level if they know everyone in the group faces a penalty if they were to leave first? Or even list their own key if they got their hands on a key that is over their head? What would be the incentive for a group of friends who enjoy trolling others not to form a group and play like potatoes knowing their victim has to face a punishment to get away.
Do not twist this (again). I am not saying every player in M+ is going to do that. But right now the ability to leave for any reason without punishment greatly reduces the number of players who will behave this way because the payoff is simply not there. A leaving penalty increases this payoff for them.
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Every other game has a defined end state. Even in LoL if the winning team is griefing and delaying, eventually the minions will push and win. If a M+ group is incapable of defeating a boss, the minions aren’t going to push and magically win for them.
this entire thread is bait
Your entire previous post, and many before that are fine examples.
The heart of the matter is simple: Are you really afraid that some ilvl 413 band of wayward Vulpera from Moon Guard will trick you into entering a dungeon with them, hold you hostage with a leaver penalty, and force you to obey their orders?
I didn’t realize I was talking to Donald Rumsfeld. You are making the absence of evidence argument.
A fine example of above btw, no, the article does not verbatim say that they can track disruptive behavior. However, no reasonable person would assert Blizzard cannot do so, especially when the topic at hand is listed as a common problem there.
Oh ok… Then for the record, how frequently do you plan to be taken hostage?
Like I said, an lfr raider carrying a raid is different than a CE raider carrying a mythic raid. You can’t accurately use “carry” as a blanket term here because-- it goes beyond what you listed-- there is the social dynamic, the logistics, and quite frankly the willingness itself.
I understand why you say that, but your view point is limited by your experience.
I don’t mind if we drop this line of dialogue, but the relation points to the fact that you and I are in vastly different spots, which is relevant because it puts my interest in a penalty in direct opposition to you continuing as you do… Irreconcilably so.
The vulpera warband taking you prisoner should not be your first worry. The goblin mind control rays are the real threat.
The key holder should have formed a better group.
Many bad players have been asking for this. It’s actually a good thing the key degrades
Also no. This would kill pugging and make it even harder for lower io groups
Also no. This isn’t qued content
All three of your ideas are terrible.
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The point that you clearly missed is that you sound absurd just like if I had him come in and tell you your opinion is worthless is also absurd.
I didn’t miss it, I played into it. 
This isn’t being implied. They’re just talking about something to deter people from being so comfortable leaving groups to jump to the next one where they more than likely will do the same. Literally a 15 minute LFG silence would be just fine. If it’s an emergency then it won’t affect them because they’ll be afk anyways. You’re being a little dramatic about the held hostage part and I have no idea how you got over a 100 likes for such a silly statement. We already have things in place in other areas of the game that do the same thing. Try not to overthink it, it’s a small issue that in fact needs to be addressed because of the constant grief happening in keys.
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We don’t know that there’s constant grief happening. We don’t have any basis in fact for that.
in my experience, unjustified leavers are extremely rare. So if I see leavers only rarely, why would I think it’s a problem?
I say “Unjustified leavers” because many times a key breaks up mutually. it’s clear it’s not going to be timed, someone says “well, gg all” and leaves. that’s not a problem when it’s obvious the key won’t be timed.
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Stop lol, yes we do. This continues to be a topic over and over again.
we don’t. The number of people who post here on GD are a miniscule fraction of a percent of the playerbase. There are millions of m+ runs completed every season, if leavers were that common, I would see it in my own experiences, I would think… why don’t I?
The only one who actually knows is blizzard, if they’re even tracking that metric. All we have is heresay and people’s feelings. We’re also only getting one side of the story from the people who come here complaining about leavers.
If someone really does see leavers a lot, I’d suggest they consider the common denominator.
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I know you already know this, because I am pretty sure I have seen you post in other threads where people have linked this to you…
No we don’t. There’s no way to tell if the leaving was justified only hearing one side of the story.
I left an AV 8 last week. Wiped on the first boss. I left.
Person starts a thread complaining about me being a key leaver.
How do you know if me leaving was justified or not justified?
In the end it was 100% justified as the reason I left was because the tank had no idea what they were doing. On the first boss the tank didn’t destroy any of the trees with the frontal before the stomp. Which meant that we couldn’t destroy all of them with the circles which means the group wiped minus me and the ret because I turtles and the ret bubbled.
8s are not the place to be learning mechanics
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