Vurai EU Repost - Outlaw needs some help please devs!

Classes Rogue
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Reposting the Original Post from Vurai on EU Forums and adding some additional comments:

Ok a few things to consider, is it possible to give Blade Flurry a soft cap using the ‘Damage reduced beyond 8 targets’ function please? It would be nice to be able to slightly contribute in large pulls which are very common and fun in the dungeons this tier. Outlaw rogues don’t do large bursts so having a soft cap wouldn’t make us OP by any standards in the big pulls, but give us the ability to not do damage closer to the tank thats all :slight_smile:

BF is also behaving weirdly in some situations, I’ve noticed it not correctly hitting targets right next to me if they are slightly above or below me in elevation. This is especially noticeable in Ara Kara dungeon, and the City of Threads (on the hills, stairs, or slightly elevated places), and I think many Outlaw rogues could agree with this as its very obvious when this is occurring.

Secondly, please take a look at ‘Killing Spree’ if possible, I’ve tried to do raid content with the hero tree (zero tree?) Trickster, and I can promise you that Killing Spree is legit completely suicidal, griefing, and stupid to use for any form of serious content, ranging from Mythic Ovinax or any mythic raid boss for starters, and even m+ dungeons, so I guess Trickster is only really viable in PVP and World content (maybe delves LOL). Just playing in M+ to hurt my mental to just see how it plays, I’ve successfully griefed other players by blowing them up on the 3rd boss in Grim Batol (was funny, but for the randoms they seemed very confused, upset and angry, and didn’t even notice that it was Killing Spree that was the culprit, on top of taking plenty of extra damage due to uncontrollably jumping into frontals, puddles, cleaves, lava every single time I press it). I can see the use for Trickster Hero Tree as Outlaw as the ultimate Trickster Troll Memer Key Depleter zero tree, and if this is the intention from the get go I’m all for it, I’ll be down for ruining people’s day with Killing Spree and have a great laugh whenever they have no clue whats going on or whats killing them or whats killing me.

The ability itself just needs an update, remove its current monke functionality and give it something cool, or even simple but powerful, worthy of a big finisher status, so its more in line with the safety and strength of Secret Techniques (the mirror big finisher shared in the trickster tree between Outlaw and Sub), and doesn’t cause us to commit suicide in any content as it currently does. I’m sure you have data to reflect this and I have confidence that you’ll see barely anyone plays Trickster in raids or m+ and this is probably down to how troll Killing Spree is.

In the upcoming 11.05 changes for Outlaw, I really think Supercharger needs a bit of a rethink, binding it to RTB doesn’t seem very smart, and I think it has adverse interactions with how we play Outlaw, especially for KIR and even for HO as well. We don’t want to be spamming RTB really as we can accidentally remove good buffs or if we have 4-6 buffs as KIR, we won’t be pressing RTB often to take advantage of Supercharger, as we can currently only press RTB once again after locking in our RTB buffs with KIR ability.
Echoing Reprimand was a really fun ability that gave us more interesting interactions to play with so I think removing this ability was a mistake to begin with.

I think it should be attached to something else thats not RTB, but my suggestion would be Vanish perhaps, but it could also just be the case that this talent simply doesn’t synergise well with Outlaw anymore in its new iteration, so maybe we just have to accept that and understand its a dead node for Outlaw for the foreseeable future and a talent that was designed for Sub and Assass mainly.

Additional Comments from Myself:

I’ve also noticed that on certain pulls (specifically the large pulls into the mini bosses in Ara-Kara), it feels like there’s something going on with our damage. I can’t confirm this yet but as Vurai stated, you know when its happening.

Changing to a soft cap for Blade Flurry would solve any underlying issues with the target cap and make us more competitive on larger pulls without making us overpowered. We’re doing tank damage on some of these larger pulls.

As someone who mains Outlaw KiR in both raid/keys, I can confirm that linking supercharger to Roll The Bones is just bad design as we will never intentionally choose to roll off a full set of buffs once we initiate Keep it Rolling + following roll. We are going from having Echoing Reprimand (which is valuable talent in our opener, along with negating any bad rotational rng), to completely ignoring this node making the spec worse. Please consider using Vanish for Outlaw Supercharger instead or don’t delete ER.

At this point, Killing Spree feels like a lost cause to me so I have nothing to add here. Its unplayable in any competitive PVE environment as 98% of the time it leads to instant death.

Lastly, please revert the damage nerf you gave Outlaw during the first week of heroic raid data. This was done hastily before any other classes had their tier sets or power spikes from important items.

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Blizzard doesn’t care about us
paladin hits from 25 yards away
and rogue outlaw can’t have 3 yards+ even with cap on bladeflurry

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‘Oh, but Hereswith, you’re not using Killing Spree on CD according to the spreadsheets!’

Vindication.

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Vindication when you don’t even understand the game lol. Trickster values are based on the assumption that you are hitting KS on CD, which guess what, you’re not which means that you’re literally griefing taking KS or playing Trickster in general. There’s a reason why literally nobody plays it but it doesn’t change the fact that I gave you factual information and you got offended by it.

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‘Well, the spreadsheet says,’

‘We don’t want to fix problems.’

‘You should just bandwagon like me and play Crackshot even though its degenerate garbage.’

Yea, no. Fix Killing Spree. Nerf Crackshot. Make Trickster playable for once.

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You’re playing a class that has more information about it than any other spec in the game with TCs that actually care and you choose to be ignorant to everything I’m not really sure what’s left to say at this point. You don’t even grasp the spec as even the most basic level to even make suggestions.

This spec does not just magically work if you “fix killing spree” “nerf crackshot” “Make trickster playable”. Your suggestions are so bad that you think that Triple Threat should replace PS procs and don’t even understand how useless TT even is. No matter what they do you will NEVER stop complaining until this spec is one button so you can gray parse anyways.

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I never said that.

I said Sinister Strike should award two combo points, and Triple Threat should replace Opportunity Strikes with the same percentage hit chance and procs as Opportunity Strikes, so Sinister Strike has a native two combo points baseline with a better proc to potentially give you a third while striking with both weapons.

About APM spam. And for some strange reason, keeping Subterfuge/Shadow Dance a thing for a spec that has no tangible benefit from doing so.

I’d trust the theory crafters with making an interesting and engaging spec as I do that ‘sole’ Rogue developer you constantly humble brag about when he comes to visit that dumpster pile of a Class Discord you all dwell in.

Not only that, you poo-poo any potential alternatives because you declare that everyone wants to make Outlaw a one-button spec when, in reality, it already is and the only reason you don’t complain about it is because you hit that 80 APM threshold and a line goes up on a chart.

Not only that, you trash anyone else that has complaints and wonder why you’re not getting any of the ‘good’ attention because there’s only ten of you left.

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A few points I’d love to toss some commentary on, as a bit of help for those struggling with a few things. And some notes on the subject as well.

No hostility intended, if some of this comes across that way, just wanting to give people some pointers as someone playing trickster extensively now.

Yeah, we need to be uncapped. Just period. I don’t care if it’s like 10% of normal damage over 8 targets. This garbage needs to stop, and yesterday. The design is archaic at this point and based on a system where no one was allowed to pull big. Now we have consistent 10-12 target packs that we just don’t bring to the table any damage for the extra targets.

Blade Flurry has always been a bit buggy in various ways, and we are definitely seeing the issue again. Prior, it was that specific instances (Tazavesh was bad about it) wouldn’t apply the AoE consistently. You’d hit the button, but the cleave wouldn’t apply. And we are seeing this again in some dungeons, but it’s wildly inconsistent, as all bugs in the class are. Just keep your rotation up and attempt to re-apply the ability but while targeting a different enemy. Sometimes the initial target was the reason it bugged back in SL, something weird about sharing how they were flagged in packs or something.

Killing spree, and Trickster in general, are in a very uncomfortable spot right now. It’s actually impossible to do the first boss on mythic properly while playing Trickster effectively. Killing spree will stick you into any roots from webs, and will immediately stun you. Every. Single. Time. It’s the only hero tree that can not be brought to the fight because of the poor design of a required ability. Fatebound at least functions without using it.

Additionally, as far as “dying 98% of the time” goes, there is a lot of ways to avoid this in all situations. Knowing when it is safe to use, and when it isn’t, is a lot of how you’ve always had to play around the ability. Some bosses have a set position on them that you teleport to for the entire animation, learn that spot. Make sure it is clear when you use it. Have Cloak ready if you take lethal damage, as cloak cleanses the “stagger” damage from the ability. I almost never die to using it anymore, and almost all the deaths are due to puddles that spawn after I hit the button, and land on me the moment the animation stops. Unavoidable at that point.

Really, what they need to do, is make the stupid ability like “Blade Dance” from demon hunters. No physical player movement, just the animation goes off and you stay in your spot for mechanical purposes and can move if need be. The fact this hasn’t been changed in over a decade, despite multiple acknowledgements from the devs in the Rogue Discord is just ridiculous. Doubly so to tie a forced use of it to an entire hero tree.

The changes to it are a bit unusual to say the least, and definitely need a more thorough pass-over. I don’t hate the idea of tying it to Vanish, but I would prefer they just don’t touch ER and fix the 85 other glaring issues making the class painful to play. Like Energy regen.

Some of this also has to do with the terrible scaling we are receiving this patch. You should sim your character with max ilvl gear. We gain a depressingly small amount of damage from 600 to 639 compared to most other classes. Our damage is so front-loaded, especially as Outlaw, that I was able to complete a +8 Mists in 585 PVP gear while only losing something like 100-150k damage overall from my normal. It’s depressing how little gear is doing for us right now.

I run HO+Crackshot Trickster, so I will take your word on this. And I agree, honestly just leave ER alone until we can get some other things resolved. We can come back to that when the class is actually functional again.

I mean, I want the skill entirely gone, but you can work around needing to use it for the time being, as I said above. Just take a while to learn the safe windows and feel out the appropriate times to be risky with it. I promise, you’ll be in a lot better situation if you get the timing down. It will start to feel like a normal part of the rotation after some time.

Okay, so the clown show of us getting buffed due to underperforming, only to be nerfed because they wanted to add “some damage” to our tier, only to have tier also still be functionally useless is just hurting my head.

So, we buffed the class to get people to tell us to shut up for a bit. Then nerfed it to “fix” the tier set. Added basically zero extra damage to the tier set. And then left us as the lowest performing class on average in raid after all was said and done. What an actual joke.

I am totally fine with us not being even in the top 10 constantly, and it’s fine to be at the bottom, but the reason we’re at the bottom is sheer incompetence and inability to understand their own numbers at this point. You can see people in the company don’t communicate and just make balance changes based on vibes and Warcraft Logs reports. What a joke, honestly.

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Make the collision box static/attached behind the target while the character animation remains the same. Boom. Killing spree fixed. You’re welcome devs. I’m sure you can find a how to guide on youtube if this is too difficult.

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