Video proof of broken PVE scaling

08/28/2018 06:41 AMPosted by Umbaka
Blizzard changing society one horrible stubborn change at a time.


Level scaling is great. If a by product of being able to go to any zone in any order is that low level normal dungeons have wonky DPS meters. Yea, that's fine.
08/28/2018 06:44 AMPosted by Umbaka
and for the record people didn't like it in legion when it came in either


People loved level scaling. ilvl scaling is not what we're talking about and they backed off increasing damage, its 4% HP per 10 ilvls. If you can't deal with 4% more hp after gaining 10 ilvls, your bad.
08/24/2018 12:58 PMPosted by Watcher
We’ve seen no data whatsoever to support claims that a fresh 120 has an easier time with any content, outdoors or otherwise, than one who has improved their gear through doing dungeons and world quests and the like.


Let me point out what the issue is.

08/24/2018 01:23 AMPosted by Darien
110 w/219 iLevel vs Normal Waycrest Manor - https://youtu.be/fAdcJ0tT-zc


At 0:34 :
Level: 110
Target: Infected Peasant
HP: 63,661

Avenger's Shield does 1750 damage (non crit). Which at 110, is 3% of the target's HP.

08/24/2018 01:23 AMPosted by Darien
120 w/340 iLevel vs Normal Waycrest Manor - https://youtu.be/EuOdz8JoupQ


At 1:07 :
Level: 120
Target: Infected Peasant
HP: 183000

Avenger's Shield does 9136 CRIT damage, which, at 120 is 5% of the target's HP.

So yes, at 120 you hit harder so technically you're stronger. The issue is that it doesn't make the runs faster or easier because their HP scales up so much that the percentage of health that your attacks do remains the same, despite them hitting harder.

If at 110 you do 3% of something's hp, it will take you 33.3 (repeating of course) hits to kill them.

If at 120 you do 3% of somthing's hp, it will take you 33.3 (repeating of course) hits to kill them.

It doesn't matter if they have 1million hp and you are you doing 30k dps, or if they have 10k hp and you're doing 300 dps. It will still take you 33.3 (repeating of course) seconds to kill it. THAT is the issue. Not the numbers. You don't feel stronger at all.

This video is proof because there is 10 levels and 120 ilvls between the two videos, yet they're doing exactly the same amount of damage to the same target.
08/28/2018 06:44 AMPosted by Brokeshield
08/28/2018 06:41 AMPosted by Umbaka
Blizzard changing society one horrible stubborn change at a time.


Level scaling is great. If a by product of being able to go to any zone in any order is that low level normal dungeons have wonky DPS meters. Yea, that's fine.


turn it off at 120 simple
08/28/2018 07:16 AMPosted by Yoitzmeeman
08/24/2018 12:58 PMPosted by Watcher
We’ve seen no data whatsoever to support claims that a fresh 120 has an easier time with any content, outdoors or otherwise, than one who has improved their gear through doing dungeons and world quests and the like.


Let me point out what the issue is.

08/24/2018 01:23 AMPosted by Darien
110 w/219 iLevel vs Normal Waycrest Manor - https://youtu.be/fAdcJ0tT-zc


At 0:34 :
Level: 110
Target: Infected Peasant
HP: 63,661

Avenger's Shield does 1750 damage (non crit). Which at 110, is 3% of the target's HP.

08/24/2018 01:23 AMPosted by Darien
120 w/340 iLevel vs Normal Waycrest Manor - https://youtu.be/EuOdz8JoupQ


At 1:07 :
Level: 120
Target: Infected Peasant
HP: 183000

Avenger's Shield does 9136 CRIT damage, which, at 120 is 5% of the target's HP.

So yes, at 120 you hit harder so technically you're stronger. The issue is that it doesn't make the runs faster or easier because their HP scales up so much that the percentage of health that your attacks do remains the same, despite them hitting harder.

If at 110 you do 3% of something's hp, it will take you 33.3 (repeating of course) hits to kill them.

If at 120 you do 3% of somthing's hp, it will take you 33.3 (repeating of course) hits to kill them.

It doesn't matter if they have 1million hp and you are you doing 30k dps, or if they have 10k hp and you're doing 300 dps. It will still take you 33.3 (repeating of course) seconds to kill it. THAT is the issue. Not the numbers. You don't feel stronger at all.

This video is proof because there is 10 levels and 120 ilvls between the two videos, yet they're doing exactly the same amount of damage to the same target.


*golf clap*
08/28/2018 06:44 AMPosted by Brokeshield

Level scaling is great. If a by product of being able to go to any zone in any order is that low level normal dungeons have wonky DPS meters. Yea, that's fine.


That's not the byproduct.

The byproduct is a horrible gaming experience where you are strongest at 110 and get weaker as you level and it's not possible to have the same level of strength until probably a year into the expansion.

It's also not a necessary byproduct. I have no issue with concept of level scaling. The issue I have is with the implementation of the scaling math.

The solution to this problem is to scale based on the ratio between your current power and the absolute maximum power available in the game. If a 110 with Antorus loot is 87% of the maximum power, then you build the mob to be the desired challenge rating for a 120 and scale it down to 87%.

Blizzard doesn't release details about how it actually works, but I can prove that it tunes far below the median item level.

I think the lowest item level you can get on a piece of 110 gear is 157. There might be lower, but that's the lowest I've seen. At the high end, you have 280 helmet, shoulder, chest, a 280 necklace (which technically has no upper limit, so I'm not sure how they count it), and 210 gear drops from normal dungeons (before warforging). As I explained previously, that means you can get up to 227.5 from a normal dungeon at 110, making the gap 227.5 - 157= 70.5 item levels.

If they actually tuned for median, then normal Waycrest Manor would be appropriately challenging at 192.5. The problem with 192 is that is above Mythic 0 loot from Legion, which drops 182. 192 is what you got from Reliquished (Veiled Argunite) pieces. It's item level 910 pre-squish.

The Game Director said in no uncertain terms that the dungeons were tuned even for people who didn't have that level of gear, so it must be tuned to give an appropriate challenge far below 192. I will not be able to prove exactly which item level it's really tuned for because I lack the necessary data, but it's definitely below Mythic Dungeon geared (182). So we're looking at a range between 157-181.

The problem with doing it this way is that, as I proved with some quick and easy item level calculation math, even if you started at 160 item level, you are 174 the instant you get the BFA prerequisite gear. As long as all of your gear is level appropriate, it's impossible for you to be undergeared. You're only 8 points below Mythic Dungeon just for showing up. And you could get to item level 200 with as few as four loot drops.

Using the ratio of your current power to absolute maximum power would result in a much more consistent challenge. You could scale the dungeon all the way down to level 1 if you wanted and make it feel exactly the same difficulty. If you wanted to still reward people for having better than median gear, you could add that in easily with a formula to change the scaling slightly if they have better. You could even write the formula so it ignores below median gear, keeping it nice and easy for people who still have quest greens.

The constant strawman arguments and blindly defending Blizzard needs to stop. I don't think my 120 should be buffed. I think the scaling should be fixed so that my 110 isn't a god.

This is an issue that results in players being unhappy. There are a lot of unhappy players. Why are you ok with that? Do you think it doesn't affect you? It does.

If people quit, you can no longer play with them or benefit from what their existence adds to the game. There will be fewer people available to group with when a World Raid Boss is up. There will be fewer materials on the auction house. Your guild will have fewer people in it. Unhappy players affects everyone.

Feeling weaker as you level is not a problem that will go away. It will continue to exist any time you level an alt, even if the alt has bad gear. Even when they release catch-up to instantly get your 120 to 400 item level, you will still feel the weakness from 110 to 119. And as soon as the next expansion launches, it's all going to happen again.

Even if you think that the scaling is ok and feels fine, I promise you that it could work better. Easily. In a way that is easier to change and update, so content can be opened to wider ranges of players and with less manual work from Blizzard. That gives them more time for bug fixing and adding new content. You know, the stuff we want.

Leaving something this broken in the game is what causes the pre-patch issues where everything is one shotting you because whatever weird scaling formula they use broken the instant a stat squish came down the tube. Does no one remember "Everything is broken and we don't even know why" from last month?

This is a bigger issue than you realize, even if you think this is a big issue.
08/28/2018 07:16 AMPosted by Yoitzmeeman

This video is proof because there is 10 levels and 120 ilvls between the two videos, yet they're doing exactly the same amount of damage to the same target.


I did not examine those numbers as closely as you did. I appreciate you pointing it out.

Maybe I'll have to go back and figure out what % of my health the enemies are hitting for. I need to lock Darienthree's xp so I can keep testing without accidentally leveling up, because I don't have anyone else with identical gear.
08/28/2018 07:29 AMPosted by Darien
08/28/2018 07:16 AMPosted by Yoitzmeeman

This video is proof because there is 10 levels and 120 ilvls between the two videos, yet they're doing exactly the same amount of damage to the same target.


I did not examine those numbers as closely as you did. I appreciate you pointing it out.

Maybe I'll have to go back and figure out what % of my health the enemies are hitting for. I need to lock Darienthree's xp so I can keep testing without accidentally leveling up, because I don't have anyone else with identical gear.


Its the same issue when you do world quests solo and you invite someone to your group. Your targets hp goes up, your damage numbers stay the same but the % of the target's hp you do with your abilities drops by half. Its an awful design that makes all loot and gear nothing more than cosmetic changes.
08/28/2018 07:36 AMPosted by Yoitzmeeman

Its the same issue when you do world quests solo and you invite someone to your group. Your targets hp goes up, your damage numbers stay the same but the % of the target's hp you do with your abilities drops by half. Its an awful design that makes all loot and gear nothing more than cosmetic changes.


Right, but Ion spoke about that type of scaling in the interview and claimed that they checked the numbers and player damage was increasing faster than mob hp. It sounds like the video I already made may prove that to be untrue.
I love how they mocked the playerbase in the Q&A when they laughed about how "All ya gotta do in unequip your Heart of Azeroth. Hahahaahaha"

Get with the picture Blizz, no one likes item level scaling and your level scaling isn't working if players are stronger at 110 than at 120.

"But it's the same as it was in Legion." Is your excuse.

Well in Legion we had Followers, we had Legion Artifact traits, we had Legendaries all of which were amazing. In BFA we have terrible Azurite traits, that are no where near as powerful as the Legion Artifact traits, on top of all that, the global cooldown was quicker so players could use abilities faster. Can you really blame the playerbase for feeling completely nerfed?

And also, "Uhh it just adds max health." Yes... because Damage Sponges make for great content right? Make challenging content, not time sink content please.
On this 120, out of curiosity I've sim'd my gear in Raidbots and WoWProgress the last few iLevel increases. At iLevel 312 I sim'd at about 8.3K. Keeping the percentage ratios of my secondary stats within a 10th or 2 (the secondary stats all increased slightly but stayed close to the same relative to each other), at 316 I sim'd about 8.0K. At the same time the health of many of the gold star elites went from 227K to 274K. So with better gear I'm doing less damage against foes who's health has increased. According to Ion's Q&A they checked all the numbers and this doesn't happen.
Maybe it's time to check a little more.
Blizz is looking at skewed results of their measurements to determine what is going on. There are soooo many variables when it comes to monitoring mobs getting killed and how fast. Blue post said 40% faster that mobs are getting killed when you gear up after lvl 120 = you looking at skewed results! That percentage is skewed....it's DISTORTED!
08/28/2018 07:56 AMPosted by Nossika
I love how they mocked the playerbase in the Q&A when they laughed about how "All ya gotta do in unequip your Heart of Azeroth. Hahahaahaha"

Get with the picture Blizz, no one likes item level scaling and your level scaling isn't working if players are stronger at 110 than at 120.

"But it's the same as it was in Legion." Is your excuse.

Well in Legion we had Followers, we had Legion Artifact traits, we had Legendaries all of which were amazing. In BFA we have terrible Azurite traits, that are no where near as powerful as the Legion Artifact traits, on top of all that, the global cooldown was quicker so players could use abilities faster. Can you really blame the playerbase for feeling completely nerfed?

And also, "Uhh it just adds max health." Yes... because Damage Sponges make for great content right? Make challenging content, not time sink content please.


I completely agree and it seems like they are just mocking players, and it shows how out of touch they are. I just wonder how many pages of complaints it's going to take before they do something about it.
08/28/2018 07:29 AMPosted by Darien
I did not examine those numbers as closely as you did. I appreciate you pointing it out.

Maybe I'll have to go back and figure out what % of my health the enemies are hitting for.


Would this help?

https://imgur.com/a/r6XX5r2

It's my Monk in 174 starter gear in Voldun vs a Wasp(s).

At level 114 with 30,280 Health (Windwalker).
08/28/2018 08:40 AMPosted by Matthyas
08/28/2018 07:56 AMPosted by Nossika
I love how they mocked the playerbase in the Q&A when they laughed about how "All ya gotta do in unequip your Heart of Azeroth. Hahahaahaha"

Get with the picture Blizz, no one likes item level scaling and your level scaling isn't working if players are stronger at 110 than at 120.

"But it's the same as it was in Legion." Is your excuse.

Well in Legion we had Followers, we had Legion Artifact traits, we had Legendaries all of which were amazing. In BFA we have terrible Azurite traits, that are no where near as powerful as the Legion Artifact traits, on top of all that, the global cooldown was quicker so players could use abilities faster. Can you really blame the playerbase for feeling completely nerfed?

And also, "Uhh it just adds max health." Yes... because Damage Sponges make for great content right? Make challenging content, not time sink content please.


I completely agree and it seems like they are just mocking players, and it shows how out of touch they are. I just wonder how many pages of complaints it's going to take before they do something about it.


It's going to take more then complaints, It's going to take a lot of people unsubbing like I did to get them to change.

I think they have too much pride imo.
98-110 DH was the easiest ride I ever had in WoW. And I started in 2004. This game is really easy now. I'm not even sure if I'm gonna get the expansion now if I can just faceroll everything. It feels like every mob is a grey mob now (weak conned).

This must be the norm for MMORPGs of the new decade? That's fine, I can accept that. I remember having to perfectly time my rotations to even solo a quest in 2005. Now it's just easy mode and I literally have zero reason to group while I'm leveling unless I need to do a single dungeon for a quest. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ At least I always have Heroes of the Storm~
08/28/2018 05:50 AMPosted by Flutterdash
No, this person has no idea how to design a game. Scaling is largely good rather than making sure a leveling process "most" people hate isn't too fast for some.


I'm not sure what your talking about the leveling process from 110-120 was like 12 hours the shortest it's ever been. Because they don't care about the leveling process at all, your character level doesnt even matter. Because once you get to max, the mobs just scale up with the better loot you get. 343 ilvl beating the same mobs i did at 110,113,117,119, within a couple of seconds. It's retarded, and you should get off blizz's D.
08/28/2018 08:03 AMPosted by Wuz
On this 120, out of curiosity I've sim'd my gear in Raidbots and WoWProgress the last few iLevel increases. At iLevel 312 I sim'd at about 8.3K. Keeping the percentage ratios of my secondary stats within a 10th or 2 (the secondary stats all increased slightly but stayed close to the same relative to each other), at 316 I sim'd about 8.0K. At the same time the health of many of the gold star elites went from 227K to 274K. So with better gear I'm doing less damage against foes who's health has increased. According to Ion's Q&A they checked all the numbers and this doesn't happen.
Maybe it's time to check a little more.


Oy. You have two on-use trinkets equipped. I would bet that you changed one of those trinkets in between 312 and 316 from one that had a proc, such as Golganneth's if you had it. You can't use two on-use trinkets together properly because using one puts a 30 second cd on both. You can't just blindly put on trinkets based on ilevel (my fully upgraded 280 Golganneth's didn't get replaced until I got a trinket that was something like 40 ilevels above it, because the new trinkets are pretty crappy as a whole).

And no, there is no way elites gained almost 50k health from you gaining four ilevels. There are variances in how much health elites have. You must have looked at one of the ones that had higher health the second time, because I'm 20 ilevels higher than you and the typical elite doesn't have as high a health as you're claiming for me.

This thread makes my head hurt. I can't figure out if the OP is a really dedicated troll or just that immune to reason. You know, dude, your alt, the one you insist was not "raid geared" and had crappy gear but was oh so powerful? Maybe he never set foot in a raid, but he is in mid-expansion raid-equivalent gear. He has a higher ilevel than I did going into H ToS. So yes, your alt with raid-equivalent gear is smashing content that is tuned for people who are in all greens except for their necklace and one azerite armor piece. I'm not sure why you think you understand how the scaling works better than the employees of Blizzard or that you understand how easy or hard it is to make all of this work. You don't know what all they have going on under the hood. Obviously I don't either, but your idea that they should be making it be of equal difficulty at all levels and ilevels is just crazy talk. They can't even tune raid bosses to be of equal difficulty if you have 10 people versus 20 people when all the people are of the same level and within a closer range of ilevel than you're going to get in leveling dungeons. And compared to your 120? You're comparing apples and oranges. A mid-expansion raid-equivalent geared character versus a pre-raid geared character. I'd like you to go try this experiment again when you're in gear sufficient for heroic difficulty of the second tier of BfA. Hint: I bet you'll be smashing the dungeon just as much as your 110 is.

We always feel like we're getting weaker as we level in a new expansion. That's nothing new. The drop was especially abrupt this time because of legendaries and artifact weapons, but it's nothing new. I remember going from something like 35k in DS to 25k as a fresh 90 in MoP. Even though things felt way worse this time around, by the time I simmed myself at level 120 (still not even geared enough for heroics, mind), I was simming higher than I had at 110, even with all those unusual power boosts. It's a normal situation that reverses itself quickly, just as it always does.

The slight health boost of mobs that happens as you gain in ilevels is incredibly negligible. Ion's stated before that their goal is for combat with a mob to take 12-15 seconds, getting through a full rotation or so. Pre-raid, I'm already killing an average mob in 6-8 seconds, about half of his stated goal. I can't say I'm thrilled with them adding in the ilevel scaling, but it really doesn't affect things in the way people claim. I have quite a lot of alts, most of which were nowhere near as geared as my main here in Legion, and I was always able to kill things much faster on my main anywhere in the Broken Isles or Argus, even when I outgeared another of my characters by 60+ ilevels. The player characters remain stronger than the mobs out in the world.
Level scaling is actually a good thing. You can pick where you want to quest and just go there to get relevant rewards.

For instance, I hate Nazmir but without level scaling, Nazmir would have a level bracket like 114-117 or something. That would mean that if I wanted to get rewards that befit my level, I would have to go to Nazmir at 114.

Now, I can just do Vol'dun and Zuldazar on my alts and hit 120 before I even have to do Nazmir. (I hit 120 from just 2 zones on this toon but did the third for the Zandalar forever Achievement). As a result, I can just ignore the side quests in Nazmir on an alt and just do the main one to get out of that zone ASAP.

The real enemy is ilvl scaling

I just can't get behind the reasoning for it. None of it makes sense.
08/24/2018 01:23 AMPosted by Darien
Edit: Original title was "Video proof of broken PVE scaling". Apparently Watcher is so defensive about his terrible design that he actually edited the title.

Edit 2: It let me change it back. Let's see what happens.

A 110 with mediocre gear from last expansion is stronger in PVE than a Mythic geared 120. Under no circumstances should a 110 be stronger than a 120.

110 w/219 iLevel vs Normal Waycrest Manor - https://youtu.be/fAdcJ0tT-zc

120 w/340 iLevel vs Normal Waycrest Manor - https://youtu.be/EuOdz8JoupQ

Same race. Same class. Same spec.

I'm aware that I didn't play either run optimally, but the difference is clear.

The 110 was able to pull all enemies up to and including the first boss, let the boss stack 100% extra damage, and stand in his poison puddles without issue.

I wound up with a different path when I went in with the 120, but it went so badly so quickly that resetting to get the same path was a waste of time. Fewer mobs were chasing me but it was far too much.

The current scaling makes no sense and really makes me wonder why I bothered to level since all it did was make me significantly weaker.

When Uldir releases, I am going to invite nothing but 110s to carry me through it.


Yea agree with this, thought it was just the first char i played the second was the same way. Pve leveling is completely borked, i've only been playing for a week and i'm sick of this xpac already.
Add in that there are way too many mobs all set on a huge agro range, every level i get im getting weaker and weaker. Very strange bugs where 6-7 mobs all attack at once in some areas. Gear upgrades are so sparse and you just don't get any better with new gear. This content feels like an early beta mess.