Hello Story friends. I hardly doubt I’m the first to figure this out but havn’t seen a post about it yet, and chats on the SF discord prompted me to make a thread.
In Legion Varimathras makes it quite clear that he is in the know for some of the spooky world conquering plans that oh so evil Dark Lady has totally always had.
The plot hole I believe, is that Pre suicide Sylvanas wanted an end to Arthas, then to off herself because she was a monster…and that was it.
Even after offing herself, it wasn’t until she saw super hell that she decided to come back. Varimathras was gone from the story before any of that, and has been locked up in the Burning Throne for years, yet seems paranoid that “She” sent you for him, then gives a vague run down about her spooky conquering plans, Shattered Mask hanging over every hearth and all that.
All in all, I think this is a plot hole that’s meant to go along with the “Sylvanas evil” narrative, as there was no way she had any plans for world domination during the stint that Varimathras would know of her plans, as her end game was suicide.
Following that logic, Varimathras wouldn’t have known the Lich King had been defeated, so wouldn’t have known that Sylvanas had tried to commit suicide and came back from it.
Though, Arthas waking up finally and attacking the Alliance and Horde in the pre-expansion events before Wrath were a lucky break for Sylvanas. It gave her the opportunity to finally got the Horde to go to Northrend. But without knowing Arthas was going to do that, Sylvanas probably needed plans to get the Horde under her control so that she could send them up to Northrend, which Varimathras was probably aware of, or probably even helped her come up with them.
I was playing classic as an undead and in Silverpine you carry out a quest for Varimathras and it explains that Sylvanas had appointed him to carry out plans to conquer the human and dwarven lands in the south.
Well yeah, stabbing herself with Old God blood probably didn’t do anything good for her personality.
This was the start of her corruption from morally questionable (she wasn’t even a good person while alive) to full on evil in my opinion.
I think there’s a bit of a difference between conquering those nearby your lands that are a threat to you directly, and “The shattered mask will hang over every hearth”
I don’t think he really indicates being in on anything. Just that he has a certain opinion of who Sylvanas is. She had an eye for subversion, deception, and conquest even prior to either of their deaths.
Intro Alliance
So, your Alliance still endures. Longer than I expected, though she has already planted the seeds of its downfall. She is patient, that one.
When your thrones run red with betrayal… when your holy places burn and the shattered mask hangs above your hearth… only then you will know. And it will be too late.
It matters not. You are blind to the true darkness closing in around you.
Intro Horde
So, she found me at last. Sent her underlings to finish the job.
Tell me, when she seized your throne of hides and bones, was your allegiance forced? No… I’d wager you surrendered it willingly… or were convinced you did.
It matters not. You are blind to the darkness in your midst.
To me that really, really seems like he’s onto something specific.
I reread both before I made my comment, yeah. To me it just sounds like vague speculation beyond ‘she’s bad and deceitful’.
Back in Legion we also had Gul’dan’s words to the Horde:
- Have you forgotten your humiliation on the Broken Shore? How your mighty Warchief was stuck in the belly like a helpless piglet? Will you die slowly as he did, consumed by fel corruption and squealing for a merciful end?
Your pathetic Horde will fall to dust. In the end, death will inherit this world... and she will be waiting.
The husk of Illidan will prove an ideal vessel for my master's glory. Sargeras will rise, and together, we will watch your world burn.
Let the endgame begin!
So many plot points left open. How did Helya get Illidan’s soul after Gul’dan severed Illidan’s soul from Illidan’s body at Black Rook Hold? What was Sylvanas’ end of the bargain with Helya?
And now we’re in the roundabout again with wondering who was it that made Vol’jin appoint Sylvanas warchief?
There are several things that come into play.
It is very possible that Sylvanas had plans to attack the Alliance well before Arthas fall. It may have been for a number of reasons. Maybe to force a move against Arthas. Maybe to consolidate power so she could move against Arthas. Or they may be been contingency plans only. But, the existence of plans to destroy the Alliance existing well before Arthas fall is not really an odd point.
Also, the Nathrezim are well known for infiltration and corruption tactics. It is more that likely Varimathras would have seen and recognized Sylvanas corruptible nature. He would have had a pretty good idea of the kind of path she would take. He probably recognized the nature or her path.
She notes in the Arthas novel that she wants both Arthas and the Humans who spawned him dead. Arthas of course was the end target while eradicating Humans were something she planned on the side.
Her “Eradicate All Humans!” plan was scrapped after her suicide in favor of a “Undeath For All Humans!” plan. For Night Elves she raises them with skin still on yet for Humans she raises them as rotting corpses that wear down over time. That’s how much she hates the Humans that spawned Arthas!
Uhh … I don’t recall Verimathras ever naming Syvlanas by name while in Antorus.
It may be easy to make that assumption, but its never specifically her. It could just as easily be Helya working from behind the scenes (as, we DO at least know that Sylvanas did NOT orchestrate her own ascension to the Warchief position).
While Sylvanas ABSOLUTELY is the “Shattered Mask hanging above your Hearth”; lets take a look at his other quotes:
- “So, your Alliance still endures. Longer than I expected, though SHE has already planted the seeds of your downfall. She is patient that one.”
- “So, SHE found me. Sent her underlings to finish the job.”
- “Tell me, when SHE seized your throne of hides and bones, was your allegiance forced? No … I’d wager you surrendered it willingly … or were convinced you did.”
- “Better that you died here, were SHE cannot claim you.”
- “Death … claims … us all.”
See? Its always “SHE” and “HER” … and as far as I’m aware, a person who did not want a Throne of Hides and Bones cannot intentionally seize it; but the entity that put her on that throne (the one that killed Vol’jin and whispered sweet nothings in his ear) … that would be “seizing”.
Gul’dan seems well aware of Death’s involvement in Azeroth’s affairs and the Legion seems involved as well.
Sargeras’s avatar possessing Illidan says “He will… yet claim… this titan…” when he dies.
Death’s identity is unknown yet Gul’dan and Varimathras bothrefers to Death as a “she” while Cho’Gall, Sargeras and N’Zoth all refer to Death as both an “it” and a “he”.
Death clearly has multiple aliases(some of them female) and Sargeras is willing to ally with him as is the Light.
There is if you have a will for the plot that is outside canon. Your reasoning is sound but the story says otherwise. There is no explicit thing being retconned, just your interpretation of actions. Your interpretation was wrong. Not the plot.
There is a danger in assuming everything that NPCs say is correct. Blizzard has directly shown us this with the unreliable narrator when the Horde hear the story of the Alliance actions. I think this is good as it makes the world better for that little bit of realism added. Be careful not to assume meta knowledge for the NPCs.
In this case, you seem to be assigning a great deal more knowledge to Varimothras than he would actually have had. Why would you assume he know Sylvanas did not want the mantle? From his perceptive he has every reason to believe she did want it, especially when you consider his past with her. And there is no logical reason he would know anything about her deals with other forces.
Why would assume that he knew Sylvanas was Warchief at all? As far as we’re aware he’s been getting tortured since Sylvie sent him back to the twisting Nether; and her presence within Legion was remarkably … selfish (and focused). Its hard to tell exactly how certain entities know certain truths, but considering he is one of the Architects of the Plague of Undeath … Veri might just know a thing or two about the Death Domain.
I think it’s most likely that Varimathras was just trying to foster paranoia and division.
His dialogue makes it seem clear that he knew. As to how he would know, what makes the most sense is that he was told. The legion certainly has sources to find that out. And he was being tortured physically. I would be surprised if they ignored psychological torture while they were at it. And I would bet that little needle was something they would enjoy poking him with. ‘Oh, that enemy who is responsible for you being her, yah she has moved up in the world.’ I feel like that would hurt him and would be used that way.
As for the Death Domain, I doubt he would have access to it. Sure, he might know a few things about it. But I can’t see the Legion allowing him to access it. Possible, but unlikely.
I just had a theory that might connect everything together:
The Legion could potentially be tied into this as well, if Gul’dan had also made dealings with Helya. This would also help answer how Illidan’s soul ended up in Helya’s hand, and what the Legion might have known at the time of the going ons of death on the Broken Isles.
its sylvanas lol blind sheepies