Upcoming Torghast Changes and Thoughts

[Dawnspirit-wyrmrest-accord]

Edit: Link to original thread on Gen Forums
Updating Torghast this Week - Community / General Discussion - World of Warcraft Forums (blizzard.com)

@Kaivax

Health and damage of all creatures in Torghast reduced by 6% at Layer 1, increasing to 26% at Layer 8.

• Developers’ note: The net effect should be that Layer 8 is now roughly as difficult as Layer 6 was prior to this change, with other Layers’ difficulty is reduced proportionally.

This is going to make the upper levels of Torghast far too easy. Layer 8 was a challenge for me at my gear level with the anima powers I got. At this point, making layer 8 as hard as layer 6 was is going to make the higher floors trivial as I basically out gear them.

@Kaivax

• Health of all creatures reduced for players in groups by up to 25%.
• Damage of all creatures reduced for 4- and 5-player groups by up to 20%.

Have only soloed Torghast mostly. Tried a 2 person group once, so I have no comment on this.

@Kaivax

When the Empowered enemy at the end of a floor is a spellcaster, they should now have a longer delay between their basic magic damage spells.

• Developers’ note: The goal of this change is to make powerful spellcasters less punishing for specializations that lack a frequent interrupt.

This is a good change. Getting a caster floor boss as a hunter at the higher floors can be a right pain if you can’t kill them quickly, especially on the 1st floor of the run.

@Kaivax

For all classes, major cooldowns will now reset when you transition to a new floor.

• Developers’ note: This functionality should mirror the way cooldowns reset at the end of a raid encounter, or when starting a Mythic Keystone dungeon, affecting most abilities with a cooldown of 3 minutes or longer.

This doesn’t really affect us all that much as our longest CDs are defensive and mobility. The pet lust being the notable exception.

@Kaivax

Anima Powers/Cells

• The starting Anima Cell in Torghast now offers a stronger selection of Anima powers.

Not sure I like this. Getting Necrotic Venom as a 1st power isn’t a really a bad thing imo.

@Kaivax

Anima Cells dropped by rare creatures within Torghast now always have at least 3 choices to choose from.

This I like. More options is always a good thing.

@Kaivax

The chance for an Anima Cell to drop from a creature on any given floor has been increased.

Like with reducing the health and damage, I think this could make the higher floors too easy, as you potentially remove some of the rng bad luck, by not getting a good, or enough powers to power through floors.

@Kaivax

Unnatural Power no longer provides immunity to crowd controlling effects at 10 stacks.

I think this is kind of over kill. It’s going to make melee bosses pretty much guarenteed kills for hunters as they can just be constantly slowed and stunned to keep them at range.

@Kaivax

Massive Crusher’s Armor Plating cast time increased to 3 seconds (was 1 second) and can be interrupted and/or dispelled. Recast time increased to 16 seconds (was 8 seconds).

No opinion.

@Kaivax

Tower Sentinel’s Oppressive Aura haste reduction and slow now scales up to 10% (was 25%).

I can see how this would be an issue for casters, shrug

@Kaivax

Deadsoul Chorus’s Death Blast now reduces healing received by 15% and stacks 5 times (was 25% and stacks 4 times).

Thank god. This was such a terrible elite to fight if you accidentally pulled 2 and didn’t realize it.

@Kaivax

Skeletal Remains and Lumbering Creation’s Bone Shrapnel now marks the ground and then explodes after 2 seconds, giving players time to move away (was instant).

Fair enough, would suck for melee I suppose. I was getting hit by them on layer 8 and didn’t seem to do much damage.

@Kaivax

Deadsoul Stalker now fades away after 15 melee attacks (was 7) and remains hidden for 15 seconds (was 30 seconds).

Another oh thank god. This thing was so annoying to fight. Not because it was hard to kill, but because it kept fading away so quickly and for so long.

@Kaivax

Deadsoul Devil now reincarnates with 15% health remaining (was at 40% health).

Good change, though if it were up to me, I’d also increase how long it takes to respawn.

@Kaivax

• Elder Longbranch’s Bounty of the Forest cast time increased to 4 seconds (was 2 seconds), time between casts increased to 45 seconds (was 30 seconds), and Hardened Shell now only requires 6 attacks or skills to remove (was 9 attacks).
• Decayspeaker’s Hardened Shell now only requires 6 attacks or skills to remove (was 9 attacks).
• Goxul the Devourer’s Health and damage decreased by 10%, and time between casts of Mass Devour increased to 36 seconds (was 18 seconds).

Overall good changes I suppose.

@Kaivax

Fracturing Forces and Eye of Skoldus enemies’ health and damage reduced by 50%, now increase assassin health by 5% per stack (was 10%).

50% may be a bit much here. On layer 8 floor 5 they could kill my cat, but I think a 25% nerf would be fine.

@Kaivax

Fracturing Forces and Eye of Skoldus enemies will no longer ambush players who have recently been in combat.

This is a good thing.

@Kaivax

The Jailer’s Directive now increases health by 10% (was 50%).

Again, making runs too easy.

[Malcvi-rexxar]

Yeah, my initial thoughts are it will be way too easy. At 182 I cleared 7 no problem with the right powers and struggled with the wrong ones.

I think we are moving into Torghast being a joke, and I guess if you have to do it each week that’s fine… Just removed any possibility of difficult single player content.

[Lazyguide-area-52 (Lazyguide)]

I appreciate the post, discussion on this is definitely a good thing.

I do think this will largely trivialize the difficulty within torghast for tons of players. Even at Ilevel 173, I almost cleared 8 last night with suboptimal powers. I’m positive if I didn’t get choices like reducing cheetahs cd or making eyes of the beast do 500% more damage I’d have beaten it without much issue.

That said, I think I’m okay with this since so many players feel forced to do this for progression before even getting into mythics or raiding. I do want the endless corridor to stay challenging as that seems like it’s supposed to be optional. I love soloing dungeons and even current expansion raid bosses when possible, so having an entire dungeon dedicated to being challenging for solo play is very enticing for me. So I hope endless corridor does not also become too easy to solo.

Edit: Just thought I should add, the other major reason why I’m okay with the overall nerf is because many classes are not designed like hunters, blood dks, or vengeance dh. I wouldn’t expect some classes to be doing well at all. I have the luxury of being under geared for layer 8 with suboptimal powers and still almost succeed. Other classes have to get the right powers or they are just sort of screwed as is.

[Dawnspirit-wyrmrest-accord]

@Lazyguide-area-52

That said, I think I’m okay with this since so many players feel forced to do this for progression before even getting into mythics or raiding.

For the people who actually care about progression, they’re going to find a way to get the top floors cleared. Whether they have to get a group or keep trying until the RNG gods favor them, they’ll keep going.

For those that don’t actually care about progression, they can clear the lower floors, and get most of the ash. I mean, for the most part, the people that don’t care about progression weren’t in there the night layer 8 opened trying to get layer 8 done.

I’m all for making runs shorter, but you can make them shorter without making them too easy. You could reduce their hp but not their damage. This would reduce the run length, and would make it easier, but still make it punishing if you mess up or get the wrong power.

@Lazyguide-area-52

I wouldn’t expect some classes to be doing well at all.

That’s kind of the point of a roguelite though isn’t it? You’ve got your RNG elements, but some things you choose externally are going to make your run easier or harder. If you blanket nerf the place because some classes/specs don’t perform in there at the same level as other classes, sure you made it so the struggling classes can do what the other classes were, but now the classes that were already over performing are completing it with little thought or effort.

[Mossburg-area-52]

Well… they listened to the mob about Torghast… Let’s ramp up the BM Legendary complaints!!!.. kidding of course… not really.

I never had issue with the difficulty of Torghast… figured it would be hard at first. 100% of my issue was the amount of trash. Not the difficulty of the trash, just the sheer amount of it. I don’t need to mow down the same 5-6 pack of trash 47 times to feel good about my ability as a Hunter. And don’t forget the 81 2-packs, 55 3-packs… sheesh… wasn’t a “difficulty” problem, it was a “time slog” problem.

[Adreaver-undermine (Adreaver)]

While I liked the difficulty as it was, I also liked 4.0 Cataclysm Heroics, and I was definitely in the minority there. I keep hearing people refer to this as “Choreghast”, and they honestly aren’t wrong from the perspective of someone who doesn’t like this kind of content.

So long as the difficulty is preserved in Twisting Corridors, I have zero issues.

[Mossburg-area-52]

It will be awesome having the lust available for that 5th floor boss, then again on the final.

[Lazyguide-area-52 (Lazyguide)]

@Dawnspirit-wyrmrest-accord

For the people who actually care about progression, they’re going to find a way to get the top floors cleared. Whether they have to get a group or keep trying until the RNG gods favor them, they’ll keep going.

Oh no doubt. Overall I think the super dedicated will be just fine. But I don’t think most people fall into that category but still want a sense of progression. The super dedicated are still going to do mythic raiding or high level keys. I just don’t think as a major expansion feature it shouldn’t be so limiting due to difficulty with the only rewards being soul ash or memories.

Twisting corridor is supposed to have other rewards isn’t it? As long as that is challenging and maintains meaningful rewards, I’m fine with the rest of torghast becoming a bit easier. They can keep more of the challenge and more impressive rewards behind twisting corridor. Let it be a show that you know how to make the best use of your class abilities and chosen powers, similar to how mage tower was treated during Legion.

@Dawnspirit-wyrmrest-accord

That’s kind of the point of a roguelite though isn’t it?

Eh, I understand what blizz is going for here, though I’m not sure I agree with that design since, well, WoW is a MMORPG first and foremost. In a roguelike I might have the option to use characters based on knowing I’m playing a game meant to be very difficult. I’ve signed up for the punishment on my own accord. That’s not really the case with WoW however, given that we’re not really choosing class based on torghast difficulty (or at least, I assume the vast majority of people are not doing that).

@Dawnspirit-wyrmrest-accord

I’m all for making runs shorter, but you can make them shorter without making them too easy. You could reduce their hp but not their damage. This would reduce the run length, and would make it easier, but still make it punishing if you mess up or get the wrong power.

Ultimately this is what I would have preferred to happen. I’m fine with what they are doing so long as twisting corridor is kept sufficiently difficult. Similar to Adreaver, I also liked the old challenging heroics in Cataclysm and I usually prefer the challenge. The blanket nerf isn’t ideal, but ultimately I’m fine with it if it makes the majority of players enjoy the game more while still leaving players like me a difficult challenge with twisting corridor.

[Sylìna-moon-guard]

I just ran both level 8s and they were insanely easy.

[Teriva-alexstrasza (Teriva)]

My thoughts… It’s a chore for crafting mats. It hasn’t been difficult yet. Victory has thus far just been a forgone conclusion, a formality. It has however, taken an increasing amount of time.

The first 3 or so runs were fun, it was new…

I can already feel the downhill slide though. Just a handful of weeks and I find myself procrastinating on it. I have limited play time and other stuff to do… A lot of other stuff I want to do.

Just personal preference but I’d really prefer if it were either a shorter chore or if the anima powers were so insane it just made me feel like an OP bull in an antique shop for this one small aspect of the game. That’d make gathering the weekly Ash more fun.

[Vhisic-caelestrasz]

What is the obsession with the idea “take longer to kill = harder = more fun”? If i can dodge a mobs attack 5 times without failing how does having it live long enough to cast a 6th in anyway practically make it harder?

Let me be clear, i have not in any way, shape or form struggled on ANY trash pull in torghast. However i have sat there waiting for them to die because they have too much health, my pets tanking it, im just doing my rotation, not hard! having it last longer isnt fun or more difficult, it just makes it a boring experience. So can we stop making out like the nerfs to overall HP are some sort of attack of hard content, catering to the casuals? Cause its not it was genuinely required to keep this already boring content as fresh as possible

[Adreaver-undermine (Adreaver)]

It’s not the nerfs to HP on trash in general, it’s the nerfs to HP on specific trash as well as elites and bosses (making the DPS check easier), the nerfs to the stacking buff on elites and bosses, the nerfs to damage dealt across the board (making it easier to ignore mechanics and just zerg it, especially once you have gear), those kind of changes.

More targeted changes like nerfs to cast speed and frequency for the enemies that can just erase you if you don’t have multiple interrupts, resetting cooldowns on a new floor, Skellies exploding after a delay so melee have counterplay options, the changes to Deadsoul mobs, the specific boss changes, those are great changes that affect the meta and will impact what powers feel necessary and whether or not you feel compelled to bring a group for broader utility. The more direct across the board nerfs just reduce difficulty in content that wasn’t overly difficult in the first place. Difficult yet, but appropriately so IMO.

[Kabbie-turalyon (Kabbie)]

Honestly, I’ve met some really newb players that had problems surviving the Maw by themselves, so Torghast is going to be rough on them regardless. (Nice people, crap players.) The rough part is, if you want access to legendary items, you gotta do Torghast, and if you want an edge in Torghast, you gotta do the Maw.

That being said, I’m all for anything that will entice casuals to try endgame content, and Torghast is fairly simple: no cost to get in, and no cost to run but time. Sure, make the first eight levels equivalent to a heroic dungeon, there’s still the Upper Reaches, and if memory serves me correctly, an endless progression mode (or was that greater rifts? I can’t remember).

Also, making Torghast so insanely difficult for low-performing classes is just vindictive. Sure, I can root a bunch of mobs with tar traps and plink away at them, but what about classes that don’t have the CC options hunters do? Last week I was pounding away on some tree boss that would have been pure hell for a boomkin player because of the constant casting of hi-priority spells it had.

So nerfs to make it easier on them? Sure, why not. After all, the upper reaches of Torghast haven’t opened yet, and my guess is that is when the tower will start getting more difficult. We’ll see how that goes.

[Adreaver-undermine (Adreaver)]

@Kabbie-turalyon

Sure, make the first eight levels equivalent to a heroic dungeon, there’s still the Upper Reaches, and if memory serves me correctly, an endless progression mode (or was that greater rifts? I can’t remember).

Upper Reaches is one of the 6 wings, it doesn’t scale higher than anything else.

Twisting Corridors is the “endless” progression mode, but it offers nothing other than a mount for pushing it. I think it needs to give you some incentive to go in there, whether it be (appropriately scaled) gear, transmog, Stygia, something. Either something non-exclusive that can be obtained by other means, or something purely cosmetic that works as an incentive in the longer term.

[Dawnspirit-wyrmrest-accord]

@Lazyguide-area-52

But I don’t think most people fall into that category but still want a sense of progression.

Most people don’t, but Torghast also doesn’t scale with item level, so as they get more gear they’re going to be able to clear higher and higher floors. If they aren’t minded towards doing the top end content, then they probably aren’t all that concerned about getting their max rank legendary as quickly as possible.

@Lazyguide-area-52

I just don’t think as a major expansion feature it shouldn’t be so limiting due to difficulty with the only rewards being soul ash or memories.

You’re right, everyone should be able to participate in an expansion feature. And they can. But at the same time, content that is intended to be hard, shouldn’t be made so that everyone can walk through it without the slightest bit of effort or forethought.

The top floors were intended to be a challenge. Yes with enough gear and the right powers, you can significantly reduce that challenge, but that’s a question of preparation and rng.

Again, I’m all for reducing the time it takes to do a run, and some targeted nerfs where it’s clearly needed. Just blanket nerfing because not everyone can get through the top layer the 1st week the top floor is out seems a bit over the top. How many people who have actually been doing Torghast are even on layer 4 or higher? I would wager probably less than half of players this week had even cleared layer 4 last week.

@Lazyguide-area-52

Twisting corridor is supposed to have other rewards isn’t it?

As far as I am aware it’s supposed to have cosmetic rewards. I know there is a mount for clearing the top layer. I think the top layer currently is like layer 18, but I could be wrong. Pretty sure it does go higher than the rest of the tower though.

@Lazyguide-area-52

In a roguelike I might have the option to use characters based on knowing I’m playing a game meant to be very difficult.

Probably not, but everyone has the same chance to make an alt of every available class if they choose to do so. They also have every chance to learn how to play that class and potentially level them and do Torghast with them if they so choose.

[Teriva-alexstrasza (Teriva)]

I’ve been thinking more on it. I was excited for Torghast when I first heard about it. REALLY excited. I really wanted a solo challenge… I really wanted it as my main form of character progression too. Ah well…

See, I loved Mage Tower. Couldn’t get enough. I leveled tons of alt classes just to do more Mage Tower… Torghast in practice, however, I’m having a hard time not looking at as a chore.

I think it might be the trash. Higher layers I’m clearing trash for an hour to get to the fight that’s supposed to be a challenge, but so far hasn’t been. Collect my Ash, repeat in the other room, and come back for more next week.

Mage Tower was an unlock quest, and then hit the fun when it’s up. Didn’t have to spend an afternoon clearing trash every time I stepped in.

I know as I get more gear, it will speed up, but my goal here shouldn’t just be to make a chore less painful.

I’m happy to see changes that speed thing up but I wish they’d do something more with this content… Pinning last hopes on the endless.

[Sabali-emerald-dream]

Just one shot an 8 today without putting any effort in.

A little sad about these changes, but it’s clear the base Torghast runs were never meant to be the challenge they likely were to some folks.

Hopefully Twisting Corridors will be fun.

[Buckshøt-kiljaeden]

I love it. can finally play mm without feeling like I’m gimping myself for not going BM.

torghast was overtuned. the soul ash earning part was supposed to be easy based on their original statements.

[Dawnspirit-wyrmrest-accord]

@Buckshøt-kiljaeden

I love it. can finally play mm without feeling like I’m gimping myself for not going BM.

I soloed layer 8 as MM.

@Buckshøt-kiljaeden

torghast was overtuned.

I will agree that most mobs had more HP than was really needed, but the damage was fine.

@Buckshøt-kiljaeden

the soul ash earning part was supposed to be easy based on their original statements.

And it was. Most of the ash came from the lower layers. More than 50% of the soul ash available from each wing per week, comes from layers 1 - 3 alone.

Layers 1 - 3 give a combined 305 ash while layers 4 - 8 give a combined 265.

If you did just layer 6 each week you’d get 485 ash per wing per week as layer 7 and 8 give a combined 85 ash per week.

This is because the lower layers give more ash than the uper layers.

[Lazyguide-area-52 (Lazyguide)]

@Dawnspirit-wyrmrest-accord

Again, I’m all for reducing the time it takes to do a run, and some targeted nerfs where it’s clearly needed. Just blanket nerfing because not everyone can get through the top layer the 1st week the top floor is out seems a bit over the top.

I mean, we pretty much agree. I’m only okay with the blanket nerf with the assumption they will keep twisting corridor meaningfully challenging. It doesn’t really effect me how fast people do or don’t get their soul ash, I’m enjoying the challenge. So yeah, the blanket nerf sucks but to me it seems like we’re in the minority. And that’s fine as long as I can still get my challenge with twisting corridors.

@Dawnspirit-wyrmrest-accord

As far as I am aware it’s supposed to have cosmetic rewards. I know there is a mount for clearing the top layer. I think the top layer currently is like layer 18, but I could be wrong. Pretty sure it does go higher than the rest of the tower though.

I think you’re right. I’m honestly looking forward to it regardless of the rewards though I’ll be more than happy with some cosmetic stuff / mounts honestly.

@Dawnspirit-wyrmrest-accord

Probably not, but everyone has the same chance to make an alt of every available class if they choose to do so. They also have every chance to learn how to play that class and potentially level them and do Torghast with them if they so choose.

I mean, yeah you are right. But I also feel like if people feel like they need to make an entirely new character just for torghast in a MMORPG that’s not really great. So, hoping that’s not the case even though you’re right it is technically an option.