Unholy's TWW M+ opener is still just as long as the live game

Classes Death Knight
1

The Problem

Despite combining Unholy Blight and Dark Transformation, Unholy’s M+ opener is still way too long and missing the mark for the streamlining goals that were set at the beginning of TWW development.

On retail, the M+ opener looks like this:

Army → UB → Defile → FS x 2 or UA → DT → Apoc

That’s 6-7 GCDs before you can actually start your rotation and do damage.
So far in TWW, it looks something like this (with Rider hero talents for the sake of simplicity):

Raise Abomination → FS → UA → Vile Contagion → Apocalypse → Defile → Dark Transformation

Even if you don’t have 1.5m cds up in the above scenario, it’ll likely only save you one GCD since you will have to FS again. So TWW’s changes are basically net neutral when it comes to our GCD economy.

Why This Sucks

This is a severe QoL of concern because it’s just way too much setup in modern WoW. Unless you’re pushing high keys or running with your own group, most of the mobs are going to be on their way out by the time you’ve pushed out all of these GCDs. It makes the game less fun for most DKs who are not going to be in a position to see the payoff from this long setup.

Another problem is that most of these buttons are just not that fun on their own. There is little endorphin hit from setup buttons that feel in the way. Even Apoc and UA that have a direct hit, are not as exciting as a Warrior’s Odyn’s Fury or The Hunt for DH.

Lastly, there is too much focus on applying and spreading wounds. This goes back to Unholy’s 8 year problem of not having adequate design/iteration around wounds. Application/spread should be easy so we can move on to spending them, which is the “fun” part.

Solutions?

Less GCDs Spent on CDs

There is room for more cooldown consolidation for Unholy. I really hate that VC is being pushed on us as a wounds band-aid. At this point, I'd take any combination of Apoc + DT + VC + UA that the devs want to give us. Most of these cooldowns set up for later damage and do very little immediate damage so feel free to smash'em together.

Easier Wound Spread

Festering Scythe has been well received by most DKs and I think most of us would like to see this ability become a rotation button as well as our wound setup/spread tool. I’m willing to lose some wound generation elsewhere, as long as the devs make this a button worth pressing.

More Variation on Popping Wounds

We lost the ability to pop wounds with SD Epi, which was probably a good move overall, but the ability to pop wounds faster and with a bit of variance was good. I think that needs to be brought back in some shape, for both ST and AoE.

Last but not least...

Stop pushing DnD cleave on us.
Cleaving Strikes is not fun!
And it adds another GCD into our setup.

18 Likes
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I fully agree. The worst for me is Dnd every 10s. I’m also a bit tired of all this discussion, blizzard doesn’t seem to read or ignore what is written here.

10 Likes
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DnD cleave is probably the highest quality of life problem that DK has right now and definitely contributes to the cooldown stuff as outlined above. The feedback on it has also been overwhelmingly negative.

Blizzard unfortunately has the habit of running way too long with their bad decisions. They almost always double down on them before finally listening to feedback and reverting things. It’s happened with many different designs like azerite armor in BfA and Covenants in SL.

All we can do is keep telling them how bad it feels to have so many cooldown gcds for Unholy and to have to AoE via cleaving strikes.

7 Likes
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Unholy needs to lose at least half of its CDs to be a playable class.

6 Likes
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I agree in spirit. I’d settle for just 1 or 2 more going away though.

Having 3 x 45s GCDs is way too many when you also have to add another 1-3 cooldown GCDs every 90/180 seconds. It might not sound too bad in a vacuum but having to spend even a few extra GCDs to set up and ramp in M+ while other specs just come out of the gate blasting feels real bad.

IMO Vile Contagion is the worst offender. Another on the GCD cooldown that is pure setup. Changing Apocalypse to spread the wounds it spends would be a nice way of making the opener feel better. Also maybe allow its hit to splash damage to nearby targets. Then the rotation becomes:

Raise Abomination → FS → UA → Apocalypse → Defile → Dark Transformation

Not huge but definitely a QoL improvement in relevant content. Then if we can just get rid of cleaving strikes/DnD, we can have some actual fun.

3 Likes
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Festering Scythe and Vile Contagion should just be baked into a 45 second or 30 second button similar to Frostscythe that does damage and aoe applies wounds. Could have it’s CD reduction tied to Sudden doom procs.

2 Likes
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Here are a few of my suggestions.

Vile Contagion:

  • Vile Contagion should be a passive ability. Bursting a wound now leaves a pestilent mist cloud for “X” seconds. Enemies standing in the cloud have a chance to develop festering wounds. Enemies affected this way cannot develop wounds again from this source for “X” seconds. This adjustment prevents Festermight from reaching absurd numbers and maintains the original gameplay mechanic of Vile Contagion having a 1.5-minute cooldown.

Unholy Assault:

  • Unholy Assault should also be a passive ability that buffs Apocalypse. Currently, Apocalypse deals low damage on its own (though that’s another issue). The damage buff from Unholy Assault should remain but be smaller to compensate for Apocalypse’s shorter cooldown compared to Unholy Assault. A 10% damage buff lasting 20 seconds on a 45-second cooldown would be appropriate.

Defiled Wound

  • Defile should be a baseline ability. In its current position on the talent tree, there should be a new talent called something akin to “Defiled Wound.” Bursting a wound now causes the target to drop blood on the ground, defiling the area. The ground becomes defiled, growing in size and dealing increased damage if any enemies are standing in it. The Defile will have a new visual effect, resembling black veins running throughout the ground, making it easier to see.

With these changes the rotation now becomes (if not choosing the new defile passive talent) :
Raise Abomination/Army → FS → Apocalypse → Defile → Dark Transformation

With these changes the rotation now becomes (if choosing the new defile passive talent) :
Raise Abomination/Army → FS → Apocalypse → Dark Transformation

Let me know what you think.

A side note:
I feel like Dark Transformation should also work on the Death Knight. When activated, your spells become empowered, providing an easy way to introduce Festering Scythe as a more controllable ability instead of triggering after every 20 wounds burst. This change would eliminate the need to stop at 19 wounds burst, allowing you to use your big scythe on the next significant pack of mobs pulled, reducing the need to track yet another mechanic.

Additionally, while the Death Knight is affected by Dark Transformation, Defile could seek you out and follow you, enhancing its utility and making it more dynamic. This refers to my version of Defile that is baseline, thus allowing players to keep their ability to press the button/spell if they prefer, and the passive “Defiled Wound.” The new visual for Defile would be greyish-dark (same color as current defile just) veins on the ground, making it easier to see. Defile needs a new visual. I also suggest adding a glyph for those who like the current look of Defile to the game, obtainable by talking to an NPC similar to the Val’Kyr situation with Gargoyle. There are many possibilities to Dark transformation empowering Death knight abilities, but you get the gist.

3 Likes
8

Why not make D&D a passive talent option similar to Plaguebringer that just makes Clawing Shadows/Scourge Strike cleave for 15 seconds and you can refresh it with each press of SS/CS or pressing Epidemic applies the effect that makes SS/CS AoE

2 Likes
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Make DnD/Defile an aura effect.
During DnD/Defile Festering Strike becomes empowered to Festering Scythe.

6 Likes
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Are we going to be stuck with defile blocking ground mechanics for another xpac? I hope so!

5 Likes
11

I wish they would get rid of vile contagion. It’s only purpose is an extra button in the aoe opener which is already bloated.

6 Likes
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This one kind of has the same problem as DnD now where the mobs have to sit in your ground effect…something that is not always in your control. We also already have infected claws that also has a chance of spreading wounds.

At this point in the dev cycle we’re probably not going to see complex changes. I think the best and simplest solution that we can hope for is VC’s effect being added to DT or Apoc, saving us the GCD.

Going off napkin math here, but pretty sure this change would flatten our burst even more. Getting 2 uses of 10% damage amp isn’t as good as 1 use of 20% because the latter will have bigger CDs and trinkets feeding into it. So we’d likely need more buffs elsewhere to compensate.

I could get onboard with this one, given the recent buff to Defile. Has Desecration vibes and could maybe even replace Pestilence in the tree.

I would love to see something like this, especially in a more disease-centric build, but as I said previously I don’t have a lot of hope for shiny new things making their way into the beta.

I see a lot of people ask for this. Honestly it’s not my favorite solution but I’d take it as a pull the ripcord kind of deal. I definitely hope that they take DnD off the GCD if they do this though, or just have it be active all the time without the damage. We have enough set up GCDs.

:pray:

3 Likes
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They could remove any damage from DnD and make it simply act like Warriors “Sweeping Strike” which is also off GCD.

3 Likes
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The way I see it. In a big trash pull, you would festering strike and scourge strike one target, and then that one targets burst wound would instantly apply wounds those in the pestilent mist area.

When I stated “‘X’ seconds,” it was more so for adds that are maybe lagging behind a few seconds. It would also apply an equal amount of wounds as the original enemy had to 7 other targets.

I don’t believe anything I mentioned to be a “complex change,” although I do agree with you. I don’t think they’ll do heavy changes for specs. My suggestions were mostly to turn already existing abilities into passives.

One thing I will not budge on, however, is the fact that Defile needs a visual update. I’ve killed people before because they can’t see the ground clutter. Since I’m the one placing it down, I know what to look for. I can’t say the same for other players that often mistake defile as a safe place to stand.

Same. I really do not want to add another TellMeWhen/weakaura to track festering wounds popped to know when Festering Scythe is going to happen. It seems tedious. Just let empower my Festering Strike when I activate Dark transformation into Festering Scythe. DONE. Easy fix. They could also empower death coil to extend my dots on the target. Pressing virulent plague is annoying. It feels like maintenance and another thing I’m tracking on my target.

2 Likes
15

You mention that it’s a lot of GCD’s to start doing your damage, but most of your damage comes from Army, your Ghoul or even the Gargoyle. That’s a fair tradeoff especially considering that if you perform the rotation correctly you will always be at the top of the DPS meters, and 3 minutes later you’ll be at the top again.

16

That’s a bit better…Your restriction of not being able to develop wounds again from this is also going to make things confusing when some mobs get wounds and some don’t. Though without it, we’d basically have infinite wounds with tab targeting. SS will also be in the precarious position of both wound spender and generator in AoE, which is a bit weird.

I do like the idea of sticking to one target and using them to set up cleave though, very traditional Unholy. However, I think the implementation and tuning of something like this is still not simple enough to be implemented at this point in the beta.

I’m pretty sure other players can adjust their graphics settings not to see Defile. But I still agree, since this is actually most dangerous for the DK who can’t turn it off.

Festering Scythe is an interesting ability (hopefully it’ll get an animation upgrade as well to look good). It’s a button most DKs want to press but the current implementation is bad. Ideally, it’s something we press in both ST and AoE, like Frost.

It could potentially be another way of getting rid of VC and giving us more consistent wound cleave by letting the talent turn FeS into a cone (still physical), with the proc turning it into shadow damage and immediately popping surplus wounds past 6.

It would be wonderful to get some actual disease gameplay as the devs originally promised, but considering all we got was Decomposition I don’t think it’s happening.

3 Likes
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Easier way of spreading wounds instead of having areas that spread wounds,

reduce the cd of spreading wounds,

bursting sores increases primary target wound damage and makes it explode, the explosion damage that hits other targets with wounds will explode a wound on that target but that wound doesnt explode to hit other enemies. So you would put wounds up, spread them and use Scourge Strike on the same target and it just cleaves if you have bursting sores.

This would mean no cleaving strikes however. Its like GW2 condition necromancer, put up bleeds poison and torment, press epidemic, profit.

18

Yeah that’s a thing they could do too and I guess it works out okay for Arms, but does the mechanic even need to exist at that point? They could attach the cleave effect to Epidemic even, and we’d probably be fine.

At the end of the day though, I’m fine with a band-aid. I’ll be happy to wait for a real rework, as long as I don’t have to press DnD and Vile Contagion in the meantime.

19

Blizzard doesn’t read the forums in general unless it’s under their blue posts.

Sorry to burst your bubble