Unholy is Full of Bad Buttons

let me start by saying i love unholy. it is a very cool spec, and some of the things i think they’ve done right are things like the 45 second dark transformation/apocalypse/unholy blight cooldown windows, the damage of the minions feels non-trivial, and it fulfills that hybrid magic/melee fantasy pretty well like a necromancer version of enhancement shaman.

but unholy is full of pain in the butt mechanics and unsatisfying buttons that are cluttering its gameplay and make it many degrees less satisfying and more complicated than it needs to be.

pustules are, simply put, a pain. they create nightmares when it comes to target switching wasting all your setup, demand a 2 button apply and pop strike rotation that leaves the strikes themselves feeling like a tepid afterthought, and create yet another debuff to track on the target in a spec that is already full of debuffs to track.

death coil. death coil is possibly the most unsatisfying damaging spell to push in the game. it costs very little runic power, and between its low cost and sudden doom procs you can easily end up overcapped on deathcoil resources in seconds, so it begs you to push this button often. the problem is, its damage ratio, even fully talented, is pitiful, its less than a ghouls auto attack most of the time. you can barely tell you’ve pushed a button at all by how little the enemy health bar moves, and the spec is asking you to push this button often to keep the wheels of the spec turning. such a thematic ability but it feels sad and limp to push.

the strikes. this kind of ties in with the pustule issue, but festering strike and scourge strike both feel very clunky. with festering strike being your “setup” strike but also the high damage strike, it makes the following single rune scourge strike feel weak and low damage, even when it pops a pustule. it feels like you are running on a treadmill pushing buttons for little payoff in a way that frosts obliterate just doesnt. when obliterate hits, you know it. big number, big sound effect, it feels worth the runes invested.

so, what could be done about all of this? i imagine there are many creative solutions, both big and small, that could be done. condensing festering strike and scourge strike into a single button would be a good start. make scourge strike 2 runes, and give it festering strikes pustule application, then move the pustule popping trigger over to death coil/epidemic or ghouls attacks or something. that might make death coil feel a bit more useful to push as well. you could also rework the rotten touch talent to instead just increase death coils damage by that much when it gets a sudden doom proc, this makes sudden doom feel exciting to get instead of a chore to have to clear out, and gives death coil a little more oomph.

i dont know the final answer, ultimately that is up to the game design team to decide, but unholy is so close, soooo close to being the coolest and most fun spec in the game, and it just misses the mark because of how many chores and unsatisfying buttons are built into its core rotation. i want to stress that i think the cooldowns, pets, and diseases are in a great spot, i just think its the main rotational buttons that feel awful to push.

7 Likes

yeah i really wish they’d go back to the old diseases and make unholy a rot spec again. i’d main mine again if it wasn’t for a healer shortage in our guild.

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I’d honestly trade every single ghoul in the kit for actual damage on the death knight

4 Likes

I hate the pustules mechanic and its the reason i stopped maining DK when they added it in legion. Its just extra work that isnt satisfying. post WoD UHDK was just about maintaining dots, youd put up diseases with trinket procs and extend them. That was it and it was fun. WoD Dk was maintaining necroic plague which in spirit was the same thing.

4 Likes

Our Class fantasy should be focussing on spreading Diseases, I totally agree.

Made a rework suggestion post some time ago.

I honestly don’t mind the wound mechanic inherently, but you hit the nail on the head with the dichotomy between festering strike and scourge strike being lopsided and awkward. I wouldn’t want to see them do away with festering strike altogether though, maybe lean into wounds being a resource generator/mechanic instigator, and the big 2 rune strike being the damage dump and wound generator? It’s a hard problem to solve without flipping the spec on its head or removing wounds altogether. The main reason we pressed festering strike in the past was to dump blood/frost runes and generate death runes, we can’t just get rid of wounds outright without replacing it with a similar mechanic.

Make death and decay great again!

I completely agree there are too many buttons and frankly it doesn’t flow or feel good to me to play. It does many things simultaneously and not one thing particularly well. I think Frost and Unholy both need a more significant revamp than what they received. The thing with Unholy though is I could see it being remade into a stronger necromancer vibe or leaning fully into the rot aspect equally. I think there would be pissed off DK either way, so they’d might as well do what sounds most fun.

I think the rotation is largely fine, but I wish our strikes did more damage. Festering / Scourge Strike are so poorly tuned compared to other DPS classes rotational abilities. Rogues, DHs, Hunters, Warriors and Paladins are all critting for 80-120k and my primary damage abilities crit for 20-30k?

Meanwhile, our DoTs don’t do nearly enough rot damage to justify the discrepancy. It just feels kinda weak being so heavily dependent on 45-90 second cool downs to do actual damage.

3 Likes

Try 200k lol

But that’s the difference between them and us. All of our abilities have cleave potential.

VP is usually 1st or 2nd overall damage though?

My biggest gripe is: UH has insane damage potential, but in lower tier difficulties/content, it takes too long to set up to truly get.

This right here hits the nail on the head.

We do really good damage in general when all of our CDs are up, its just from too many different sources. DoTs, Pets, Pustules, Strikes, Death Coil, Epidemic, etc. None of it feels impactful on its own and without stacking CDs, we don’t do a whole lot of damage from our base kit.

Its so much fun playing 2H Obliterate and seeing back to back 100k crits and watching the enemies health chunk down. But then you realize at the end of the fight that you still did 20% less damage than Unholy would have done. Yet when you play Unholy, you don’t even notice the crits because they’re so low. Who cares about a 24k Death Coil, a 22k Scourge Strike and 9k Pustule along with a 18k Ghoul Claw, 4k DoT tick, 35k Festering Strike and once in a while, an 80k Soul Reaper. Other than Soul Reaper, none of that feels impactful whatsoever.

I 100% would rather play 2H Frost, but its so far behind Unholy that I feel like I’m playing a character 20 item levels lower than I am.

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This can only be achieved if pet damage is drastically gutted. Remove Army entirely because our damage is basically balanced around that sh*t Cooldown.

Remove Pet scaling from mastery and instead make Diseases scale with either haste or mastery.

Reduce Gargoyle cooldown by 1 min and duration down to 15s.

Dark Transformation taken off GCD and remove its AoE damage component, instead 20% damage buff for 15s to line up with Garg.

1 min big dick Apocalypse. Something like 30k tooltip.

Rework Wounds to work like Afflictions Agony to be an auto stacking DoT.

Drastically increase Death Coil damage.

In my eyes the purpose of pets should be debuffing the enemies instead of being the major source of damage. It is enough, that we have to manage our pets with Gnaw and Leap.

They could also interfere with Diseasea by sometimes refreshing their duration.

3 Likes

I will say, 20k FS crits in BGs isn’t bad, but SS doesn’t even register in my brain when i use it. It’s for the utility, no matter what the damage is, because it just doesn’t compare to FS or DC when you’re actually seeing the numbers pop up.

I would have liked to see a full pet build, petless wound build, and petless disease build, with variations and combinations of the 3. I like pets in PvE, and they aren’t horrible in BGs, but small scale stuff showcases a lack of pet control, even with macros. Wounds in BGs, especially epic BGs, feel awful. Set up on someone just to have them escape back into the crowd, or die from the 20 other people who started attacking, which puts you at the back of your group recovering for your next lame attempt that ends the same.

Their new talent trees are similar to what ive suggested since Cata, but the execution went too far. All abilities (currently specced into, and not core abilities) should still need to be chosen, but each one would have its own branch which would allow you to upgrade each ability as you put more points into it. SS, for instance, would start with the ability, then you could have 2 choices for upgrades, like SS being a ranged all shadow attack, or speed up disease damage. From there it could be the DnD cleave or disease duration increase. Maybe go a bit further and give a chance for SS to not use a rune, or disease crits do more damage. You could specialize in a few abilities all the way down, split the points between all of the abilities and have less niche, more general build, or anything between.

(Also, those examples had about 9 seconds of thought, so don’t focus on the answer, but the concept).

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A large part of this is due to the legion redesign and buffs like Festermight. Back in WoD, DC and SS felt better. SS was buffed by having diseases present and did not have part of its damage put into wounds. Our diseases felt better to use, especially with Necrotic Plague. Things went downhill once they changed our runes so that our abilities were spammable, brought in wounds, and changed UH to be pet > disease.

In addition, they’ve been adding CDs to the spec without any meaningful redesigns, so the damage keeps getting further distributed. They combined DT and Apoc in SL alpha for a day, before reverting it. While it didn’t make sense then, I think that would be the right kind of change for the spec right now.

Having our CDs line up naturally was a really good change, now they just need to tone down how many we have and redistribute some of the damage back into our abilities.

  • remove army and buff Apoc
  • unify the 45s CDs to 1-2 abilities
  • add an optional talent for gargoyle to give it cleave in exchange for some of its single target potential, maybe also lower the CD
  • have UA replace ERW (90s ability) and combine the effects
  • buff talents like rotten touch and harbinger of doom
  • allow SS crits to do more damage and burn up an extra wound
  • remove FM and buff baseline abilities or redesign it to have a sliding window, lower the cap if necessary
  • remove Vile contagion and buff pestilence