Unholy is basically ready

Classes Death Knight
143

I would call the melee ‘archetype’ a class that has to be close enough to the boss to melee them in order to be effective.

But, let’s try to be as generous as possible to you.

Let’s assume we don’t call melee an archetype or even descriptive label. Instead, let’s use your categories: Short, mid, and long range.

What is short range? Well, that has to be the specs that have to be close enough to the boss to melee. There are a whole group of classes/spec that do not produce value outside the range they can melee the boss. That is the first range limiting marker. There is no shorter range requirements than that, therefore your “short range” category has to be classes tied to the range that allows melee hits.

Typically people call those classes melee, but let’s use your labels and call them short range. So, any spec that could not effectively fill their role outside of the range to hit the boss with melee attacks would be “short range.”

It would then fall that mid range and long range both are able to fill their role without being close enough to hit the boss with melee attacks. Long range just able to do it from further.

That is using your labels. So, where is the problem? Well, this was your claim:

And here we have your problem. I don’t really care if you want to call it ‘melee’ or ‘short range.’

To fill it’s role, Unholy has to operate inside the range that allows melee strikes on the boss. Therefore, Unholy is (using your label system) a ‘short range’ (what most call melee) spec.

Bottom line: Unholy must operate in the range to hit the boss with melee attacks as much as possible in order to operate at a viable level. If the word “melee” bothers you, call it “short range.”

144

I’ve shared my thoughts earlier, unholy differs from frost in functionality, frost needs auto attacks and its cds rely on it being in short range or melee to pull it off, it does have a few ranged options but not like unholy.

Unholy has melee requirements but most of its kit is ranged now, there is also less emphasis on autoattacks. Theoretically you could pivot out of melee range after fulfilling the festering strike requirements and spend the next 5-10s at 30y range if needed before having to come back in.

Sure you’ll do more optimal dps if u stay in melee range for the added autos but it isn’t such a substantial drop in throughput. Frost could never do this, it is far more tied to “melee” than unholy is.

145

So does Unholy.

But key, significant parts of its rotation and damage do require melee range.

Again, it doesn’t matter the number of abilities, key and significant parts of the damage is melee range only.

Less emphasis us not zero.

Tell you what, you go try that on Unholy in Midnight and see how many groups are happy with you doing that.

Yes it is.

More or less ‘tied’ is irrelevant. Both are very much under the same rule: Stay in melee or do crap damage.

It is like if you compared a Frostfire specced fire mage to a Sunfurry fire mage. The Frostfire mage is less tied to pure fire spells. But if you cut out pure fire spells from the rotation you are still doing it wrong. Being Frostfire does not make them not a fire mage. Similarly, Frost DK has more melee range abilities than unholy, but if you cut melee out of the Unholy positioning you are still doing it wrong. Less pure melee abilities does not make them not a melee spec.

Unholy is a melee class (or if you prefer, short range). Unholy is not mid range. Unholy should never be at range if they can help it.

146

The frostfire/sunfury analogy doesn’t depict your point accurately, maybe the devourer DH’s hero talents might be a more plausible example, since one emphasizes on the melee portion of the tree while the other caters to the ranged only playstyle.

If we go by your logic, a devourer DH is also a melee spec since it has to enter melee range sometime within its rotation.

147

No.

Devourer is a hybrid (if you take the melee talents).

I don’t think you are understanding the difference.

Devourer (if you take melee talents):
The play is designed to dive in, hit, and then jump out for the rest of the rotation. The dive in and then jump out movements are part of the rotation. It wont be gaining from auto attacks. It wont have defensive CDs and CC based on being in melee. It is designed to not want to stay in melee range. It wont lose damage by being out of melee range most of the time.

Unholy on the other hand:
Needs to stay in melee as much as possible. Does not have move out/in abilities. Does rely on auto attacks. Does have utility and defensive abilities based on being in melee. And importantly, does lose damage any time they are out of melee range.

Let me make is simple:

Melee (short range): Wants to be in melee range as much as possible. Loses damage if out of melee.

Mid range: Does not want to be in melee. Does not gain from being in melee. Cannot effectively operate at long range.

Long range: Likes to be far from the target.

Unholy wants to be in melee. It loses damage when outside of melee. Unholy is a melee spec.

148

We’ve already been over this before, unholy does not have such serious melee implications on defensive and rotational needs. You’re over emphasizing it.

It is still 1 rotational ability necessary in short range, and 1 optional sustain at the cost of damage, nothing else. Autoattacks are near trivial for the spec now. Possibly less than 2%. You’re over dramatizing the necessity of being in melee range.

Also, your argument about dev DH is counterfactual and poorly expressed, the spec has abilities which deliberately move it into melee range, even if it wants to “stay out” it partially has things to do within its “optimal” rotation that moves it into melee range. Ergo melee range is necessary for devourer DH’s playstyle, ergo it is a melee spec by your logic. Where is the auto attack weaving logic ? Aren’t we going to discuss the fact that DH, as glaive wearing casters, can in fact auto attack and weaving that between casts might be “optimal”? Wait does that mean dev DH is a melee spec that must stay in melee range because you’ve decree’d it optimal for throughput?

Segmenting and cherry picking your arguments has not helped prove your point.

At this point we might as well just agree to disagree, we obviously seem to have distinct opinions on the matter. However, it does not change the fact that unholy has been deliberately moved in that direction. If you’d prefer to put your head in the sand and say nay, then so be it.

149

Let me make this more simple for you:

Devouerer DH spec is an Int Based Caster who has the option to be melee hybrid or purely ranged focus.

The way the talent trees are built atm has to be reviewed because Fel Scarred is purely Melee skills and should also include reap or consume and not just Hungering Slash/The Hunt…

Reap and Consume while they are used by the Hybrid Melee are not the whole point of the melee build.

There is specific situations where the Melee hybrid build will excel and its looking like 3-5mobs on a 15-20second CD of aoe damage. Its not massive, Fel Scarred will help this so it will be fairly melee heavy since the 2 current abilities force you to be in melee.

How ever the right side of the tree is purely Ranged damage. It will partly be used in Hybrid but it focuses more on Ranged single target. There is some talents to try to make it more Caster AoE competitive but that tree CURRENTLY has to pick up Anni Talents. Which focuses purely on the caster aspect of both ranged/Melee hybrid.

The same goes for Unholy DK, a few small tweaks and both Hero talents are set for Ranged combat, and would thematically fit the class of Necromancer. Giving said class the ability to use a stat stick like a staff while still using Plate would not only make it extremely appealing to majority of the playerbase, but zombies.

As you have seen in a previous video the Army of the dead talent (not the talent choices after it, but we will get to that) summons about 20 lesser ghouls over about 8seconds, of which you are suppose to use your ranged skills to putrify and spam your scourging strike. It generates Lesser ghouls which are basically the OLD festering wounds but mobile. You can stand at ranged and just Detonate or spread diseases, you have no reason to use Festering Strike in this time period because doing so would over cap you on ghouls (they have a timer)

Talents for Army of the dead include Abom and Gargoyle, Abom summons 4 lesser ghouls with it and pulses its aoe plague around it for its duration. Perfect for M+

Gargoyle how ever is a single target and summons 4 ghouls and a gargoyle that ramps up damage based on your Runic Power spender. Perfect for Single Target encounters

If you havnt caught on to why i was talking about Dev DH and now Unholy DK yet, they share the same concept. One of its talents can be altered to increase its throughput while doing absolutely zero damage in melee.

150

7/8s of your rotation can be played from 30 yards away… You are indeed a ranged spec.

151

Warriors and rogues are now the only melee specs classes in the game.

152

So enhance is also a ranged spec.

Warrior is a ranged spec because they have throw weapon.

Everything is ranged.

2 Likes
153

lol 150 post long thread and it seems like everyone actually posting on a death knight gets it at least.

If the raid leader says “melee will group up here” the unholy death knight will group up there, if a raid leader says “ranged dps will group up here” the unholy death knight will ignore it. If your raid is short one ranged to soak a mechanic or something like that, you will still probably get a warrior, monk, dh, rogue or druid to do it as they can maneuver faster both in and out.

Another way you can tell unholy is a melee spec is fighting a priest in PvP. As an unholy DK you are going to run on top of the priest to make escape as difficult as possible where if you were playing an actual ranged class you would engage at a range so they cannot counter you with their fear. Likewise Hunter, mage, warlock, we want to sit on top of them despite their melee only or close range limited CC effects.

I like unholy having ranged options, it makes the gameplay interesting, but it doesn’t change the fact I will be with the rest of the melee poking the boss in the butt and doing melee themed mechanics by default.

3 Likes
154

The direction they took is Unholy being melee.

You never do yourself any favors.

This is just wrong. Does unholy have to hit its enemies with melee attacks in order for the spec to function as intended? Melee isnt a range, its an archetype because it has to melee the enemy with its weapon to be functional and effective.

155

Key part of the rotation.

Again, it does not matter the number of abilities that force melee range, just that it is key to the rotation.

No they are not. Auto attacks represent a significant source of damage.

And then back out.

No. Let me make is super simple, since you are clearly intentionally being obtuse.

Assuming you take the melee talents,
Devourer wants to be in melee sometimes and out the rest.
Unholy wants to be in melee all the time.

Additionally:
Devourer has the tools to effectively move in and out of melee as part of the rotation. In fact, those movement abilities add damage.
Unholy does not, since it is intended to stay in melee.

They are not the same.

This isn’t even just an opinion thing. Objectively Unholy is designed to and will be required to stay in melee as much as possible in order to remain viable.

IF you are going to play unholy in Midnight, feel free to try playing it at range. You will find out VERY quickly how poorly it performs.

Unholy has not been deliberately moved toward being a ranged class. Blizzard would not have left key, significant damage sources tied to melee if that was the intent.

Why is that option to be a melee hybrid?
Answer: Because if you spec that way you will spend part of the time acting like a melee class, wanting to be in melee range and part of the time acting like a mid range class not wanting to be in melee.

Unholy is not the same. There is no part time in, part time out. Unholy always wants to be in melee range.

You could tweak any class to be ranged if you wanted to. They fact you say changes would be required to make Unholy a ranged class means you are admitting it is currently a melee class.

Outlaw rogue has ranged abilities, so according to these guys it is now a ranged spec.

Exactly. And to add, I also like the ranged options because I feel less gimped when running toward a target (either target switch or after running out for mechanic) and I watch the warrior charge past me to be instantly on the target.

1 Like
156

What’s funny to me about all of this is that the moment they bring in other examples of things like Devourer, the entire argument crumples, because we already have an example of a ranged class diving into melee occasionally, that being Red Mage from FFXIV.

The game still treats it as a ranged dps. Its autos do no damage. It going into melee outside of three buttons in its burst combo is entirely unnecessary rotationally. Nobody calls Red Mage a melee. Just a ranged that hops into melee during burst.

Devourer literally pulls off of this exact same concept, but people still try to imply that hopping into melee for 2-4 GCDs magically converts a ranged spec to a melee.

Unholy and to an extent Ret simply live and die conceptually as melee by the relative criticality of maintaining melee.

It doesn’t matter if everything outside of Festering Strike can be done from melee. It’ll still eat a huge loss to not press that button and it’ll still be classified as melee by mechanics.

Same thing for Ret. Ret still wants to go into melee for Wake, Crusading Strikes and Divine Hammer. Even if you decide to ignore those somehow, you’re still a melee for mechanics.

I just wish these people would understand this and move on from asking to warp Unholy.

I’ll go ahead and break my rule of ignoring you here to just say one thing:

Almost like people can make errors, huh? :slight_smile:

1 Like
157

This is the part we disagree on meringue, not much else to say here really.

158

Disagreeing with the truth just makes you look unhinged and not rooted in reality.

Unholy wants to be in melee all the time or else the spec doesnt function properly.

159

I think it all boils down to them wanting a thing (in this case a Necromancer) and letting that desire make them see what they want even where it is not.

And you are objectively wrong.

It is never the correct choice for Unholy to be outside melee unless mechanics force it.

Anytime Unholy is outside melee range it is losing damage. That is an uncontestable fact. It may not lose as much damage as a rogue or warrior when outside melee, but it is still losing damage.

To play Unholy correctly and effectively you have to maximize time in melee range. Anything else is wrong. Hence, Unholy is a melee class. Period.

1 Like
160

One could argue the nature of objectivity is partially subjective, but that is beyond the context of this discussion.

Let’s revisit this conversation when midnight releases, if unholy truly still require complete melee uptime to function then i will concede.

161

No.

One of my big frustrations now days is how many people don’t understand the difference between opinions and facts. It is like having a flat earther say, ‘Well, we just have different opinions.’ And yes, I have heard that exact comment from one.

I don’t believe that.

Here is the thing: We already know it does.

You have already had TONS of evidence given to you. If you wont concede now, you aren’t going to later.

1 Like
162

There is no point in interacting with this person.