Unholy is basically ready

Classes Death Knight
83

Ret and Unholy are NOT even kind of mid range.

Mid range classes/specs are things like Evokers or the new Void DH. They are specs that do not want to be in melee or far away. They want to be medium range.

Melee are specs that if at all possible, they want to be in melee range. For them being out of melee is a damage loss. That applies to Ret and Unholy. Both specs do everything they can to stay in melee range as much as possible. They are melee specs.

The reason they have ranged abilities is that it is not always possible to stay in melee. And, as a melee, the longer you are out, the more damage you lose. So, classes that are able to get back in and/or to a new target faster lose less damage because they have less time away. Classes that are slower to get back in need a way to compensate. So, they have ranged abilities to minimize the loss of damage while moving. It is not an accident that the slowest melee classes have the most ranged damage. But all melee specs want to spend as much time as possible in melee range, that includes Unholy and Ret.

Mid and long range classes on the other hand do not want to be in melee. They want to be mid or long range respectively. For them, being in melee is more likely to cause damage loss from mechanics.

It really doesn’t. It has the Deathknight fantasy. Raising undead is not limited to Necromancers.

84

Necromancy is an archetype, deathknights are melee necromancers. It doesn’t always mean a necromancer = a caster.

Canon lore: The original death knights were created for Orgrim Doomhammer by Gul’dan as powerful soldiers of the Horde. These death knights were created by placing the souls of the slain warlocks of the Shadow Council into the corpses of fallen Stormwind knights, the first of whom was Teron Gorefiend. Unlike modern death knights of the Scourge, these ghoulish fiends were not battle-hardened warriors: they were insidious necromancers who possessed superior intellect and tremendous magical power. They often favored the use of terror tactics and reanimated the corpses of enemy soldiers who fell in battle to serve them as mindless undead minions.

Most of these death knights were destroyed during and after the Second War, either killed by the Alliance or transformed into lichesby Kil’jaeden.

Source: wowwiki. Also available in warcraft books, reign of chaos and the frozen throne lore.

As for what mid range is, i’ve tried to explain that it is a categorical reframing of the traditional archetypes. An evoker or devourer dh are mid ranged casters whereas ret and uh are mid ranged “melee”, neither fits the traditional melee vs caster archetype. A devourer dh also has melee interactions, are they a caster or melee? Separate the traditional categories into common groups, it is not an either/or situation, they are both.

Edit: furthermore, your argument that mid ranged needs the range due to uptime is incorrect. Unholy has diseases and minions, neither of which are bound to technical uptime limitations. Death coil is a spell and scourge strike is now 30y range by default.

The only melee abilities that require melee range are festering strike and death strike. Death strike is rarely used outside of certain situations as unholy so the only reason to ever be in melee range is to FS. Even sudden doom was changed out of auto attacks into disease ticks. You have no real reason to stay in melee range anymore other than to cast festering strike when you need to refresh your buffs.

85

im not going to respond to your entire post because its basically a child crying over the changes and trying to justify it still being melee… But this one is just hilarious in my eyes, “ITS RUNEFORGING”… yes, it is, its not rune blades, its runeforging

Summon Gargoyle does this right now… Summons 3 lesser ghouls, and a gargoyle.

Lesser Ghouls in the new proposed unholy.

a Filler spell, to replace Festering Srike

a ghoul pet you turn into a bigger pet by rotation… unholy currently has this. You want the abom, thats also there in M+ builds.

Current Blood rotation, except they just made bonestorm a passive. Blood Beast is basically Marrowgar.

Blood spell, bone shield. marrowrend is basically just this description with bone shields being the result.

Heavy dots, like unholy.

this concept falls flat when there is damage after encounters that you have to heal through and all your strong healing is through leech of a target that doesnt exist any more.

literally another blood ability you are trying to repurpose for a spec that isnt DK. are you starting to see a pattern here?

a . disease type mechanic? whoaaaa where have we seen this before?

Literally another blood ability for dk.

you mean the frost ability from 4 expansions ago? weird that.

what you have described here shows you have no actual ideas, you have the same CD across 2 specs, that uses imps from another spec reskinned.

what you have described in this entire post is a DK, but at ranged… a literal changing of spells and jumbling of abilities.

86

Except in WoW, necromancers are casters.

The first death knights, which have nothing to do with scourge death knights, stop bringing them up.

Runeforging is literally forging runes into your weapon making it a rune weapon…

87

Key points here.

But this is just not true. They are not mid range. That is not where they are trying to operate.

You are conflating range and damage type. Doing non-physical damage does not mean not melee.

And where are you getting the idea of “traditional archetypes?” It is certainly not WoW. Ret has been in since Vanilla, where it did spell damage. Same with enhancement. In the case of Paladins Ret and Prot could actually benefit from + spell power. That was changed. If anything WoW has moved them more in line with the other melee, not moving away from any traditional archetype.

If you spec that way, yes. So, have you seen what those interactions are? The gameplay is to dive in, hit, and jump back out. The new DH spec is primarily mid range because they primarily want to spend time at mid range. The optimal play, depending on spec choices, is most or all of the time in mid range.

Now, compare that to Ret and Unholy. They are not mid range, they do not want to be out of melee range. They want to be in melee. They are not even hybrid, because they never want to be out of melee range. Even if we ignore the word “melee” and use your short, mid, and long Ret/Unholy are short. They are not mid. They don’t want to operate at mid range, ever. There is no situation where their optimal performance is outside of melee range.

The only reason Ret/UH ever leave melee is when there mechanics forcing them to. The same way actual mid range (Void DH & Evokers) only go into melee or long range if they are mechanics force them to. The same way long range classes only want to be closer when mechanics force it.

First off: Actual mid range classes need ranged abilities because they don’t want to be in melee. Ret/UH are not mid range, they want to be in melee.

The ranged abilities are to allow them to function at some (reduced) level when not where they want to be.

(Small nitpick here, pets do have run time when switching targets/locations.)

Again, yes Unholy can do some damage at range. And yes, some of that damage is pets/dots. But that damage is suboptimal. Which is by design.

Mechanics force classes to move out of optimal position, or even just out of range. How much uptime they lose is not the same across classes. Blizzard tries to balance it as much as possible. Highly mobile classes lose less uptime, so less damage. This means slower classes have to balance it. That means persistent sources like dots/pets(sometimes), short burst windows (like Ret has), and ranged abilities like Ret/UH have.

To put is simply: In ALL cases Ret/UH being outside of melee is sub optimal. It doesn’t matter if ranged attacks exist. Therefore, Ret/Uh are melee (short) ranged classes. Period. They are NOT mid range classes.

This is one of the more laughable claims I have seen. I have not complained about any of the changes to DKs. The actual changes to the class look great. I am VERY hopeful of where Blizzard is taking the class.

You are just the one begging for the class to be butchered to give you a new class you want. Me calling out people for false descriptions of the class if FAR from complaining about changes.

88

Name one thing unholy needs or wants to be in melee range for in midnight that isn’t festering or death strike.

Not sure you and that other dude are arguing for, some identity tribalism around melee? You’re not a caster, nor are you a traditional melee class. Neither is ret. You have some melee interactions and some ranged. You are neither a close ranged only fighter nor are u a long ranged fighter. You are a mid ranged fighter.

If this is too difficult to accept for you then i fear nothing i say will change your mind.

89

This is a bad argument. Its just you trying to force the answer you want to win some points.

Unholy is a melee spec.

That makes you melee.

You literally just proved to everyone that Unholy is a melee spec.

No, unholy is melee.

What you did is like saying “frost is mid ranged, tell me what would Frost want to be in melee for that isnt Obliterate, Frost Strike or Auto attacks”.

If those things are mandatory, and they are melee, that means you are melee.

Not with your arguments.

90

Kelliste dear, define melee. What is it? A caster can auto attack with their staff. It’s not viable but technically doable. An elemental shaman has primal strike, they can melee but it isn’t optimal.

Where do we draw the line on what is considered a melee spec? If a spec has a single melee ability then it is a melee spec?

Then if devourer has melee interactions are you going to say it isn’t a melee and doesn’t count because you can avoid taking that side of its tree?

There are discrepencies in that logic that i am trying to clarify yet you do not wish to humour me in the attempt where we can both find a common ground.

In such a case, from my perspective you are the one that is one sidedly deciding that the deathknight is a melee while projecting bad arguments.

The issue lies in that terms such as “melee” are not clearly defined in people’s minds. What is a hunter in this case? Is it a caster or a melee? If you say it is neither but “ranged” then you have made my point.

91

What is this, a what is a woman question? Melee is hand to hand combat.

Does a caster have a need or want to do that? No so whats your point?

Then why the hell bring it up?

Then why bring it up?

Its been explained to you. Someone who has to fight in melee range in order to make use of the spec as its intended.

If it forces them to be in melee, yes.

No there isnt. Its you losing and you not liking it.

Maybe in yours, but its pretty clear in mine.

Oh Ozimov dear, define caster.

92

Alright, i respectfully disagree. Have a nice day!

1 Like
93

What, you think you are entitled for people to answer your questions but you run when you have to answer other peoples questions?

Define caster.

94

It is just that our interaction has shown me you aren’t really open to discussion.

On these forums lurk angry people who argue for the sake of argument not for any constructive discussion.

These people tend to be closed minded bigots who can only see things as absolutes.

It is obvious from your take that you cannot see the grey scales between things, your view is black or white and nothing else.

Against people like you, arguing is a waste of time, you split down every microsentence trying to argue the details. A person desperate to win.

I do not wish to engage in an unproductive back and forth with people like you. I know this is going to displease you to hear but i’ve already said my piece. Those that read will understand my point and weigh the argument based on their own opinion. Nothing we add beyond this point is going to prove anything to anyone other than spam the thread. So call it what you will.

Again, have a nice day.

1 Like
95

What insane drugs are you taking? I just went through your points, debunked them and asked a question. How is that not open to discussion?

Quit being a baby and answer the request. Define caster.

96

Functionally, in game mechanics and the way it is used by the majority of players:
They specs that have to stay in melee range, hitting things to get optimal value, and are not tanks.

For most people it is. You are trying to redefine it. Which is why you are getting pushback.

Name something other than a key part of the rotation?

Well, how about auto attacks. Blinding Sleet.

But you are missing the point: Blizzard clearly designed the class to want to stay in melee. You pointing out you can do some, although crap, dps from range doesn’t change that.

Good lord. Try to address the actual discussion rather than trying to dismiss what is said by calling it tribalism.

Blizzard built DKs as melee. Blizzard clearly intends us to stay in melee. No amount of trying to redefine melee will change the roll Unholy and Ret play.

97

No. Gary does not. You summon three ghouls WITH Gary, who then attacks your target. The Lich is up and repeatedly raises minions. He doesn’t attack. He constantly funnels in three types of minions. Not just three minions total.

Can DK heal others? No. They can’t queue in the Healer role.
Can DK Bone Shield others to shield them from damage? No. They cannot. AT BEST there is a talent that spreads your AMS but you can’t pick your targets with that like a healer can.

You’re being stupidly over-reductive and clearly don’t understand what the fantasy of a DK is opposed to a Necromancer is in Warcraft at all.
Maybe also if you go play other classes in game you’ll realize a lot of specs and classes have overlapping mechanics without being identical to each other!
You wanna be that reductive? Alright, gotta remove DoTs from Unholy cuz Warlocks had the DoT game first. Can’t let Warlocks have Demonbolt or Shadowbolt cuz Mages have Pyroblast and Fireball! See how dumb that is?

98

The problem with this idea is that the fantasy of the unholy dk isn’t as a plague spreader. Spreading plagues is a tertiary thing inherent to all death knights, unholy just happens to be the best at it because of it’s actual class fantasy which is being a mini version of the lich king. That’s why unholy’s artifact was a knockoff frostmourne that did everything frostmourne did, except for be frostmourne just so that frost could have the artifact made from the weapon with frost in it’s name.

If you were to rework the identity of unholy to just be a plague knight instead of a frontline necromantic warlord, then it would have the knock on effect of making it so that none of the death knight specs would truly embody the fantasy of the character that inspired the class any longer.

99

Ok fine, i’ll try to explain my perspective again.

My point was that melee is a range not an archetype.

You stand in melee range , i’ve never heard someone say stand in caster range. Casting is an archetype but melee is a range.

If melee is a range, aka short range, then what do we call a melee class that has spells and many ranged options? We can’t just call it melee for it isn’t just that. We could call it a brawler sure but the distinction remains in where we classify brawlers.

The unholy dk or the ret pally cast instant spells and weave melee attack. They don’t fit into either category. The confusion arises due to a missing label in people’s minds, there is no term to define a hybrid that isn’t pure melee or pure caster.

The closest synonym in fantasy is a battle mage, but mage has large implications in wow so we can’t use that. So how do we distinguish the separation?

Forget the lore or whatever for a second, the class has specs which vary by functionality, frost has a lot more incentive to be in melee range, unlike unholy, eventhough frost has ranged spells most of its kit requires the melee range mechanically. It is more of a close range brawler with ranged options.

Unholy does need to be in melee range sometimes , but you are not as incentivized to stick to your target the way frost is. Unholy is more of a mid ranged brawler with close range requirements.

This differs from a Devourer DH now because we can finally make the distinction. Eventhough devourer is a caster it is a midranged caster with some short range requirements if chosen.

An evoker is also a mid ranged caster but it has no short range requirements unlike devourer.

Now we can also define what a hunter is, marksman is a long range brawler, not a caster.

Do you see my point?

100

It is.

Melee classes are classes designed to spend as much time as possible in melee range.

Sort of. Typically when someone talking about WoW says ‘caster’ they are referring to a class/spec that primarily uses abilities with cast times. Not someone that uses spells.

But they do. They are melee because melee range is where they need to be in order to get optimal value. And they don’t use cast time abilities.

Okay, I think your problem is that you have labeled things different than most people. For the vast majority of players you talk to, nobody will have this confusion.

For most people:
Melee: Any class/spec that needs to stay in melee to be optimal
Ranged (Mid or long): Any class/spec that can function optimally outside of Melee
Caster: Class/spec that primarily uses cast time spells.

Ret and Unholy are melee.

If you insist on tying the use of any spells to ‘caster,’ call them ‘melee caster.’ That might confuse some people since they don’t use cast time abilities. But, if that helps you have a term, great. They are still melee, they are NOT mid range.

This is where you are not understanding Unholy. To be optimal, Unholy has to be in melee all the time. The ability do sub optimal dps from range does not change that. Unholy needs to be in melee all the time to get full value.

All the ranged abilities do is reduce the loss of damage when forced out of melee (mechanics/target switches/etc.). There is still a damage loss.

That is why Unholy and Ret are melee specs. To get optimal value, they need to be in melee. Not sometimes, all the time.

If you want an example of an actual hybrid spec, look at the new DH (assuming you spec into the melee talents). Optimal value for them will be spending most of the time outside of melee range, but with parts of the rotation involving diving into melee and using melee abilities. They will want to be in melee sometimes, but not all the time.

1 Like
101

I get your point, i really do. However i don’t see it that way.

You can build a ret so that you never have to enter melee range. Is it optimal? Probably not, but it isn’t trivial either. You can do let’s say 80% of an optimal’s throughput without ever stepping foot in melee range. Can a warrior do that? Not possible.

Unholy in midnight is being reworked while deliberately addressing the nuances that the spec needed to maintain in melee range.

Autoattacks for procs like sudden doom changed to dot ticks.

Scourge strike was changed to 30y by default.

Putrify is 40y range.

What is left for unholy is festering strike. If you disregard the autoattacks you can almost stay at mid range most of the time and dip in to FS when needed.

Is this optimal? No. But you CAN do it. Being able to do so sets you apart from classes that can’t.

The devs are deliberately pushing the spec in that direction, you just don’t like to admit it for simplicity’s sake.

It is easier to lump everything into one category but the nuance is lost. You obviously do not want to consider my perspective and that’s fine, just please stop grasping at any angle just to justify the extremes.

Using the “optimal” debate isn’t a great way to express your idea. There was a time when warlocks had shadowflame as a conal dot that was considered optimal for throughput, forcing warlocks to fight in melee range for the sake of parsing. In this situation was the warlock considered a melee?

I’ve seriously given ample example and definitions explaining my point, all i ever get from you is: it has a sword = melee.

Anyway, just like the other dude before you, let’s just agree to disagree. Go enjoy your melee class.

102

That depends on who you mean when you say “you.”

Blizzard could design it that way, sure. They could design a warrior to never enter melee if the wanted to. Doesn’t change that the current design requires you to be in melee to even kind of be doing your job.

A player on the other hand, can’t.

If you are playing in melee as Ret or Unholy, you are not just playing sub optimal. You are not even reaching the viable level.

Your wouldn’t be doing anything close 80%. Your damage would likely be closer to 30-40%, optimistically.

They could stand at range spamming Heroic Throw. It is not a good idea, but neither is trying to be ranged with Unholy or Ret.

If you are not in melee range you are losing auto attacks and a key part of your rotation (festering strike). That is a massive damage loss. And that is the problem when you say:

They are obviously not. Festering strike and auto attacks form a key part of the damage, locking Unholy into melee range. Not to mention utility and survival abilities like Death Strike, Grip, and Blinding Sleet all requiring and/or triggering melee range. The Devs clearly intend Unholy to be in melee range.

We are not talking extremes. Blizzard clearly designed Unholy to be melee. There are VERY clear abilities that force us to be in melee.

Maybe I should use “viable.” Any DK that is not staying in melee as much as absolutely possible is not going to be doing viable DPS. I used “optimal” because optimal dps is 100% uptime in melee range. We can’t always do that, but the goal is to get as close to that as possible. Viable requires minimizing the loss when we are forced out of melee range.

The range abilities exist because we can’t always stay in melee. And we can’t just charge/leap back in.

That is a strawman. I have never said that.

Here, let me repeat what I actually said about melee:
Melee: Any class/spec that needs to stay in melee to be optimal

Let’s make this really simple to help avoid strawmen:

Midnight design of the class requires Unholy to maintain melee range as much as possible. If they do not maintain melee range the damage loss is significant. Therefore, we can conclude that Blizzard intends Unholy to be played in melee range. Meaning Unholy is a spec that requires melee range. In other words, Unholy is a melee spec.

Fair enough.

I intend to. The changes look good.