Understanding the Arcane Magic

Alynsa-wyrmrest-accord · February 20, 2025, 11:36pm

Well, to be very blunt… It is called “Anti-Life” for exactly that reason.

My whackadoo attempt to reconcile why Domination Magic is “Death Mind Control” would probably be that all living things die, all dead things are dead, so Domination magic works by exploiting that presence of death within them.

I mean, we see Fel magic, which is all about Disorder, can control minds, even though the concept of Disorder doesn’t sound very “will subjugation,” yet it can do exactly that.

So why not Death magic too?

Drahliana-earthen-ring · February 21, 2025, 12:23am

Anti-Life is the ultimate mind control power in DC because there is literally no defense against it, be it slime, mortal, or god it can and will take you over which is why Darkseid is so obsessed over it. So the storytellers here essentially did a remake of that trope with Zovaal and Domination Magic. Domination Magic essentially bypasses the mind and literally takes over your soul, so to have it be death magic gives the latter a step out of the restricive box of merely animating the dead.

Alynsa-wyrmrest-accord · February 21, 2025, 12:24am

I am just so happy I’m not the only one who connected Domination Magic with the Anti-Life Equasion!!

Drahliana-earthen-ring · February 21, 2025, 12:41am

You can blame Young Justice for my renewed interest in this trope.

One of the characters is Halo, a dead girl animated by the spirit of a slain MotherBox. Because of her human incarnation she is a key to Anti-Life.

Zilidar-emerald-dream · February 21, 2025, 2:07am

This doesn’t really address my questions?

Drahliana-earthen-ring · February 21, 2025, 2:31am

The elves taught the Humans magic because they needed cannon fodder for the Troll Wars. They only started warning them after they started feeling the results of shenannigans in Dalaran.

Raselle-kargath · February 21, 2025, 6:22am

Plus they apparently neglected to share how to build the proper runestones to prevent it, as they had done for themselves in Quel’thalas to remove the risk of their own magic attracting demons.

Kind of a weird oversight, since demons of the Burning Legion using a bunch of human mages to orchestrate their reentry to Azeroth would threaten Quel’thalas along with everyone else, and appointing a secret society with an overpowered champion to just hunt the demons down instead of using a proven method to outright eliminate the danger of them being accidentally summoned seems like a knowingly faulty half-measure.

Étel-nemesis · February 21, 2025, 10:21am

What I mean is that domination magic doesn’t seem to merely affect the victim’s mind, as we see with dark magic causing madness and fear. It seems to alter the victim’s identity, changing something that was part of their nature, as if it were actually affecting their soul.

Tenebrae-eredar · February 21, 2025, 11:10am

In the old RPG (apparently used as canon until WotLK), arcane magic was still portrayed as some kind of dark magic. Its true origin was the Twisting Nether, it corrupted its users (arcane corruption), and there is even a passage in Norgannon’s description that states that the Titans actually prefer to avoid the Arcane due to its demonic nature. There was also a line like ‘Fel is the ultimate manifestation of the demonic arcane.’

The principle applied to all arcanists, i.e. mages, but especially warlocks and necromancers. This is also why, in Classic, the warlock class teachers say that the arcane only corrupts the weak, or why Tabetha (Dustwallow Marshes) looks suspiciously at a warlock PC, saying ‘I can smell the power of the arcane on you, but you seem to have eluded the stank of corruption that comes so willingly with your kind’, despite being a mage herself. The mage teacher of the undead also warns you, claiming that undeath won’t protect you from that.
That was one of the reasons why the night elves disliked the arcane. Or why the arcane was considered ‘one of their worst enemies’ by the Church of Light. If I recall correctly, Rhonin received little affection from two paladins in one of the books.

Of course, it wasn’t entirely consistent back then. The titans created also the Well of Eternity, which was critical for the creation of life. It was also implied back then that leylines reflect planetary order, f.e. with their patterns responsible for climate.

The RPGs were decanonised in 2011.
However, if old lore was still written using these premises, it stands to reason that it no longer fits perfectly. What remains is: As the manifestation of Order in the Great Dark Beyond, arcane is the language of order and the opposite end of the spectrum from fel, which represents Disorder.

On a side note: In the RPG, there were also two methods for casting arcane magic: ‘clean’ and ‘vulgar’. The clean way was to use runecasting. A runemaster’s spells were based on leyline rune patterns that varied by geographic location. For example, Tanaris runes can be used to cast fire spells. The vulgar method was standard spellcasting. See details below for more.

More Magic and Mayem

While empowering a rune is akin to casting a spell, the two actions are very different. Where the normal arcane caster channels arcane power and shapes it through the use of gesture, word and material components, the runecaster simply shunts the energy into the pattern formed by the rune, serving as the channel between the energy and the rune.

This process defines the difference between runecasting and arcane spellcasting, and is the reason that the use of runes does not cause arcane corruption. The patterns of traditional arcane spellcasting are not natural - the energy of the world, which emanates from the Well of Eternity, does not fl ow into those patterns without the dominating will of the arcane caster to bend and spindle it into those shapes. This is an act of supreme hubris; the forcing of the world’s essential power to submit to the desires of the caster is the reason that other kinds of arcane casting cause corruption. Rune-casting uses patterns that already exist in the world. Since these are naturally occurring patterns created by manifestations of the Well of Eternity’s power in the world, the rune-caster need not force the energy to obey him. It fl ows willingly into the patterns - these are the patterns that the energy itself created, duplicated on a smaller scale.

Étel:

I understand that arcane magic, as an expression of Order in our reality, is responsible for dealing with the chaos of creation and organizing all physical things. She, therefore, is the one who stabilizes all matter and prevents the presence of its opposite force, Disorder.

But if your role in the universe is to bring order to chaos, it makes sense that a mage who manipulates this type of magic can accomplish the opposite, which would be to distort its nature to act precisely as its opposite force, bringing disorder to the universe.

If we think of something organized as something that is in conformity with its creator or in conformity with the nature of things, every action made by a mage is a distortion of the natural order of the universe and, therefore, is a disordered use of the magic of Order.

The mage, despite controlling the Order’s magic, uses it in a chaotic manner. And because it is not performing its natural role, the Order’s magic can also be seen as chaotic magic whenever it is being controlled. I say “chaotic magic” not in the sense of a new magic, but rather as a magic distorted in its nature, similar to the magic opposite it.

The peculiarity of arcane magic makes it highly unstable because of this, because any interference from us completely distorts it from its nature and puts it on the same level as its opposite magic, as it no longer forms part of the order that was established for the universe.

Furthermore, this may justify why demons are attracted to the unruly use of arcane magic, because it is a disorder of magic that would be responsible for avoiding it.

For this reason I do not see that Chronicles distanced itself from ancient tradition when it established cosmology. I liked what was created and I found it consistent with what was in the WoW universe until then.

That is one of the reasons I believe this explanation is excellent. (the one I was looking for). It’s consistent with both the new and old lore.
The mage, even if he only uses arcane magic, causes havoc like a demon. This weakens the world’s fabric, allowing mad mana spirits or demons, and the Twisting Nether to slowly enter the physical world.

It appears that any place where arcane magic is chaotic is either in the nether or has been extensively tinkered with.
Netherstorm was once Farahlon, before Nerzuhl exploded the leylines. Outland itself is within the Twisting Nether. Malygos has brutally diverted all leylines to the Nexus in an effort to eradicate magic from the world, resulting in the rift. And the nightborne of Azsuna stand above a torn leyline, etc.

Zilidar-emerald-dream · February 21, 2025, 12:42pm

This wasnt inconsistent at all. Even in the RPGs the Titans were masters of the arcane.

That’s because, initially, being a mage was about CONTROLLING the chaos of the Twisting Nether. Titans were always beings of Order (considered lawful neutral in the RPGs) so it made perfect sense for them to be the masters of bringing order to disorder.

Leylines can be extremely chaotic if too much energy is channeled, as shown at the arcane sanctums (built on leylines) or Karazhan (a leyline nexus).

Leylines are typically harmless because the energy is dispersed over large area, but if that power is condensed it’s just as chaotic as any other form of arcane.

Fun fact: in the old lore, runes are condensed, artificial leylines that force arcane magic to travel through a “circuit” of sorts that creates stable magical affects. By combining different runes into magical formulae, you can create poweful spells. That’s right: all those weird shapes and symbols you associate with spells used to have a clearly defined meaning.

Oh lol you already talked about this. Its very early in the morning for me, lol.

But yeah, I’m probably the only one who actually prefers the old magic lore that you’re describing to what we have now.

But anyway, Chronicles flipped this dynamic, where arcane magic is about controlling chaos, and broke everything before it as a result.

The Nether was originally described as the source of all arcane magic.

This is kind of…exactly my point? That old lore was retconned in favor of this Chronicles stuff, and now we need to jump through mental hoops to make the old stuff make sense with the new stuff.

We literally see the mana-forges sucking the nether itself into them and harnessing that energy as arcane magic. That was clearly the intent.

That’s because arcane=nether energy. Its that simple.

Or it was.

Étel-nemesis · February 21, 2025, 1:47pm

If we take the ancient tradition about wizards, at the time of the First War, we come across mainly the order of conjurers of Stormwind, whose notable member was Nielas Aran, father of Medivh.

These wizards did not focus on the exclusive use of arcane magic, but rather on the study of magical creation and the summoning of creatures and objects, possessing abilities related not only to common mages, but also to witches and shamans.

As far as I know, before Chronicle there was nothing certain about the origin of arcane magic, only that it was found in the Twisting Nether and that some characters from that universe theorized that this was its source of origin.

Excerpt from the book Warcraft: The Roleplaying Game:

The Nether is an intensely magical environment, and some speculate that it is the true source of all arcane magic.

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Twisting_Nether#In_the_RPG

Zilidar-emerald-dream · February 21, 2025, 3:27pm

There was and I just told you what it was

I can open a pdf of the RPGs if you really want, but again remnants of this are all over the game everywhere all the time. You just choose to interpret it in a more complicated way to help it mesh with modern lore. And that’s fine.

Side note: did we ever find out how domination magic comes from the primordial concept of Death? Or how “Death” magic can grant something “unlife”? Shouldn’t necromancy be a midway point between life and death magic? How can the pure concept of Death raise people from the dead?

Edit: you just quoted the RPG. If you dont think the “some speculate” line is enough, then just add that to all the other bits of evidence I’ve been listing. Stuff like Archimonde referring to Dalaran’s magic as “stealing our fire”, the warlocks claiming we’re using arcane magic.

Oh? Or how about word of God from vanilla? Read the mage description.

Nothing ever indicated that arcane came elsewhere.

Arcane = nether energy until they changed it recently.

You can not deny that this was the intent. Please stop being obtuse and gaslighting about this.

Étel-nemesis · February 21, 2025, 3:31pm

I don’t see anything within the game that claims arcane magic originated in the Twisting Nether.

Zilidar-emerald-dream · February 21, 2025, 3:36pm

Vanilla WoW literally says mages harnass the power of the twisting nether. This isn’t speculation. Its word of god from their class description.

Mages are the premiere arcane spellcasters and they harness their power from the Twisting Nether. There was never any indication that arcane magic came from anywhere else but the Nether.

Just 2 years ago you can find forum posts where people talk about the Twisting Nether being the source of arcane magic as a matter of course. This was common knowledge ever since Vanilla WoW, and persisted for years even after Chronicles retconned it.

Whenever someone is affected by the energies of the nether, it’s either arcane or fel, with arcane being the primary one. Think about the nether drakes casting arcane spells at us. Think about the Tempest Keep Nethermancers. Think about the Rift in the Nexus. Think about Anomalous, a pure being of arcane, literally shouting about “CHAOS”.

The only canonical theory that ever existed before Chronicles said that Arcane comes from the Nether.
Which you, yourself, quoted.

You dont see it because you dont want to see it my friend. You’re happy with the current lore and more power to you.

But it feels like gaslighting to just pretend this is always the way things were and to discount anyone saying otherwise.

Étel-nemesis · February 21, 2025, 3:43pm

What we had before Chronicle was information labeled as “theories” coming from characters in the game. Therefore, there was nothing certain, but only theories.

Zilidar-emerald-dream · February 21, 2025, 3:45pm

Objectively false. Class descriptions during character creation are not people in the game. Its word of god from the developers.

And again, this was the only canonical explanation that ever existed, without any alternate theories ever given until Chronicles retconned the way this all works. Calling it speculation or a theory is misrepresenting what was obvioisly the writer’s intent at the time.

So even if an RPG says something is “believed to be” a certain way, if literally all evidence points in that direction and no alternate theories are given, then the average person considers that canon until a massive retcon comes along.

For example: in the Elder Scrolls you can find books where people claim daedra come from Oblivion. Heck we get to visit Oblivion and we see daedra there. So it must be true right?

If, decades later, we learn that daedra ACTUALLY come from an even further plane called “the realm of Chaos” and jus inhabit Oblivion sometimes, then that would be a jarring retcon, even if the previous descriptions were ostensibly speculation.

In the case of Warcraft, we only ever had ONE explanation, and we literally visit the outskirts of the Twisting Nether where we see stuff happening that further confirms the initial explanation.

Now we’re being told arcane doesnt actually come from the nether and that it’s an expression of the concept of Order, despite the fact that we see arcane act in chaotic ways ALL THE TIME.

Your explanation for this, that arcane is only orderly in its own dimension or when stabilizing the fabric of reality, does not make any sense.

If arcane=order, and arcane can become disordered, then how can order sometimes = disorder? Its a contradiction in terms.

The math literally doesn’t add up.

If Arcane=Order then, unless it’s orderly, it can’t be arcane. It would be its opposite then: fel.

But clearly that isn’t the case! XD

We see arcane…ARCANE…not fel, act chaotic all of the time. That should literally be impossible in this setting if arcane is a pure expression of Order.

But this exchange with you is starting to feel weird and gaslighty so I’m bowing out for my sanity.

Étel-nemesis · February 21, 2025, 3:49pm

Could you provide the original information to at least substantiate your point of view, before moving on to more aggressive arguments like this?

Zilidar-emerald-dream · February 21, 2025, 3:53pm

That’s all I’ve been doing and you’ve been discrediting everything I say to fit your new lore. I bring up a clear contradiction or hole in the magic lore, that others acknowledge, and instead of addressing the substance of what I’m saying you repeat dense, academic explanations that dont address anything.

Doness-kargath · February 21, 2025, 3:56pm

“Magi are wizards of immense knowledge and skill. Their obvious physical frailty is deceptive, for they can call upon the cosmic energies of the Twisting Nether. Rarely do magi engage in melee combat. Instead, they prefer to attack from a distance, hurling powerful bolts of frost and flame at their unsuspecting enemies.”

It’s very easy to find online.

Zilidar-emerald-dream · February 21, 2025, 4:04pm

If you’re honestly coming into this with an open mind, then I’ll try one more time to explain some of the issues we have with Blizzard’s arcane retcon: