Undead Keep Getting Dumpstered

Lore Story Forum
161

I do think Calia needs a reason to get a little distance from the Alliance personally. She doesn’t have to be outwardly antagonistic to them, but if she is to be trusted to guard her now dead-people as A dead-leader, she needs to be able to make hard choices on that topic. In favor of the Forsaken, and by extension, the Horde they are a part of. I also think she should be very wary of living Human resettlement, they are likely to naturally push the Forsaken out over time. Even BtS shows that the majority of humans do not like what and who the Forsaken are for many, MANY reasons.

Beyond that though, in a scenario that includes Calia as a significant Forsaken leader … I do believe you need to build up Voss to be her counterbalance and equal. Not a temp, not lesser. Thematically, Calia represents who the Undead of Lordaeron where in life; Voss represents fairly well who they have become in death. Both are sides of their identities that should be fostered and supported. Sylvanas only really fostered the latter identity, Calia (in her current state) only fosters the prior. Voss AND Calia however could facilitate all that is “Forsaken of Lordaeron”.

EDIT: Surround Voss with supporting characters like: Belmont, Tattersail, Faranell, and Velonara; and Calia with: Faol, Derek, Leonid, and Delaryn … and you have the makings for a very solid and balanced character roster. 2 A Rankers, 8 B Rankers. A lot of variety in personality too.

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162

I disagree that Sylvanas was retconned, I personally see her arc as being the inevitable conclusion to a being so fundamentally broken.

When she founded the Forsaken, she had a clear goal: kill Arthas. But over time, her passion that served her so well in life became more and more twisted in undeath and she began to take ever more questionable actions to reach her end goal with the mindset that the ends justify the means.

And when Arthas finally fell, the only defining aspect of her existence was gone. I believe her when she said ‘what joy is there in this curse?’ She always saw herself and the Forsaken as monstrosities, something she tolerated only as a means to an end. And once that end finally arrived, there was no reason to suffer it any longer.

But the afterlife was not at all what she anticipated awaiting her. In trying to destroy a monster, she had become one herself and thus she faced the terrifying revelation of the Maw. But fortunately for her, she was spared due to the Val’kyr and by extension the Jailer who offered her another path.

In this moment, I think Sylvanas was fundamentally broken and became something else entirely. How could she, Sylvanas Windrunner, be consigned to the MAW like ARTHAS?? Everything she did was for vengeance for all her High Elf brethren who fell that dreadful day in Quel’Thalas and THIS was her reward for avenging her people upon their killer?? So what if she took a few moral shortcuts and slaughtered a few humans to create the means to make his fall possible?

It wasn’t fair, IT WASN’T FAIR!

In that moment of revelation, she cast aside any semblance of her old life that she once clung to. She was no longer that Sylvanas, what good had she done her in the end? In that moment, she truly became the Banshee Queen and she became focused on only one thing: her own survival at any cost and feeding the power of the Jailer and, by extension, her own.

In short, her complete fall from grace was inevitable as soon as she learned her drive for vengeance made her into a monster doomed to suffer the same fate as Arthas.

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163

I agree.

:pancakes:

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164

It means strongly prejudiced against women.

I said it, because they ruined a good female character for the sake of the villain bat.

Lately it seems the best writing Blizzard can do for a female character is give them a male partner. All the ones without partners they kind to either prep for villainising, or make them rather irrational / not really intriguing.

165

So you don’t know what it means. Got it.

166

I mean, might as well bring back Arthas to lead the Forsaken. Shoot, why not Ner’Zhul. Maybe Tichondrius is free this weekend, too.

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167

It was a joke

168

Honestly, I dislike the whole ‘redemption’ arc that the Forsaken are having as a whole. It is lame players who roll and undead and complain that they are the ‘bad guy’. Don’t get me wrong, I think there is plenty of nuance between an forsaken and not all are by any means evil. But the whole ‘just like you thing’ doesn’t make me like them.

Same issue exists on the Alliance. I rolled human because they are ‘true neutral’ - they are capable of great heroism and completely evil acts. However, some guys roll human thinking we will always be the hero. I want to do evil, I want to join the Scarlets. I do not want to be a pussy-footed blue banner.

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169

They haven’t been this for ages. Or, at least not those within the Alliance Faction itself. There are humans who break the mold, but they are almost exclusively exterior of the Blue Team; and almost always directly antagonistic to them. This sort of “purity test” philosophy has increasingly been a present factor with how Blizz writes that side of this game. Which, consequently, in part means the races of the Horde have to pick up that slack.

Regardless, the Forsaken are a “Mongrel Race of Rotten Corpses”; and not just physically. Their identity is also a composition between those who’d reclaim as much of their identities before death as possible; those that have more thoroughly adopted their current Undead identities; and those on a massive spectrum in the middle. IMO their writing should reflect that … and neither side should be portrayed necessarily negatively.

170

Don’t forget they are Misandrists too.

Ruining Good Male characters for the sake of the Villain Bat.

They can’t win. :innocent:

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171

If you think it means something other than prejudice against woman then please, open a dictionary or enlighten the rest of us on what your thoughts are other than simply stating you disagree or calling someone wrong. If not - Oh so you’re arrogant without reason? Got it.

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Exactly. If anything that only confirmed how little she actually cared about the Forsaken. The end of the story basically was “Well now that I know what awaits me if I truly die, I need them as meat shields even more now but I have to be more careful how fast I waste them”…hence her need to create more Forsaken. They’re still just tools to her, arrows in her quiver to be spent as she chooses, not people to be cared about.

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174

Oh no, you got the definition correct. You just don’t seam to understand the USE of the word or how to apply it correctly to a situation.

Because nothing about Sylvanas getting villain batted is remotely “misogynistic.”
Unless you’re trying to argue that Sylvanas was Villain batted BECAUSE she’s a woman, then you’ll have to back that up with some support.

Otherwise, that’s just actually being sexist yourself.

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175

I did. To quite literally quote myself -

I’d have no issues with Sylvanas being Villain batted, but I would had loved if they had more obvious markings about it and applied it in a more respectful manner - I mean granted she’s always been dark & gloomy / done things in an ‘unorthodox’ matter, but even so to simply backpeddle a retcon and state "Oh yeah the Wrath gate was partially her idea too, she just played it off like it wasn’t along with a bunch of other things we suddenly decided … " then have Blizzard straight up lie about her not burning the tree / and not becoming the villain for BFA, it seemed either like lazy writing or a scape goat to kick things off using someone they feel is expendable.

That being said, a tad offtopic - the Horde have had their leaders picked on for awhile now, it would be nice if the Horde wasn’t villainised each time there’s a faction conflict.

176

Really? Because they gave Sylvanas a Male Partner and we see where that landed.
If anything, giving a Female Character a male partner LESSENS her character overall by trying to build up that character to match her.

They did alright with Malfurion and Tyrande but only because their stories were so intertwined throughout Warcraft Lore. Otherwise, the best female characters either have no male partners or their partners are out of the story outside of a few side stories and/or cameos.

177

You guys are getting the Night Elf edit

178

There have been numerous people on these forums claiming that Blizz went overboard with “Female Empowerment” with this expansion.

All three Warbringers were female. (Jaina, Sylvanas, and Azshara.)

The Brennandam Assault in Stormsong was pushed back by the leadership of Mayor Roz.

Lucille Waycrest (while not a fighter) assembled and lead the Order of Embers in defeating the witch coven trying to take over Drustvar.

The major players of Tiragarde Sound were Katherine Proudmoore, Taelia Fordragon, Flynn Fairwind, and Priscilla Ashvane, all but Flynn being female.

Talanji was the primary character for Zandalar and it was clear from the beginning she was succeeding her Father this x-pac. She was also the driving force behind taking the fight to the Blood Trolls in Nazmir.

Voldoun has both Bladeguards Rakera and Kaja as the Zandalari characters for the zone.

Almost all the allied races have female leadership.

They really haven’t done a bad job on this with BFA. It is likely one of the few things that you can give them positive praise for on BFA.

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