This says it all. If they want to implement unnerfed versions of encounters, we should have specs that were tuned when the respective patches went live. Not where many specs, not just ret, are struggling because it’s last patch tuning.
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We didn’t have quality sims in 2008 and its very likely that DK would be the top DPS in a 3.0.0 client. Losing tank/healing quality of life just sounds unfun. Revenge no longer hitting 2 targets for 5k-10k but instead doing 4k damage and a stun just sounds terrible. Beacon of light no longer transferring overheals, terrible. Paladins not even having divine sacrifice until ulduar and it being much worse.
The only one I somewhat agree could stand to be nerfed is AD on prot pally, but at the end of the day its not actually that insane as people make it seem to be.
Edit: Just because warrior/ret seemed good at the time doesn’t mean they would be good again in a true 3.0.0 state, people weren’t as good at finding the OP stuff as they are today.
Edit2: I would also challenge that few if any specs likely do LESS damage than they did in 3.0, they just don’t top like they did. One of the only original naxx25 vods I know of from a good guild in 3.0 had a fury topping the meters at 6.3k DPS, thats probably not even a 99% percentile for todays fury.
or Warlocks
10 UH DKs 10 mages and warlocks the rest healers and tanks
Directly above me is an example of a scalieflight andy who thinks they know anything about wotlk.
Bruh I full cleared all wrath content when it was actually relevant. Gatekeeping the easiest Classic expansion isn’t a good look
Says the dude who thinks having 10 dks and 10 mages/warlocks is the go to raid comp.
Go back to retail, there you can gatekeep by class stacking all you want, which is apparently how retail should be played.
Uhh what, this is literally how guilds are playing. Here is bipolars fastest PW for example https://imgur.com/a/yrPlGQZ 6 dks and 8 combined lock/mage. If you look at the fastest chinese PW its got 16 dk’s.
If you look at speed runs nota has 8 dks. Try hard guilds in classic are class stacking, its not a retail thing.
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Damn Brodie so low IQ he can’t even understand a joke rofl
What’s funny is I was memeing; but am actually correct yet dude just seething about it rofl told me to go back to retail despite being here since 2019 omegalul
I understand what you’re saying, but the problem is that many specs are struggling because of the last patch tuning because it’s revolved around having the ICC tier/Shadowmourne. Blizzard wants to push out pre-nerf content, then they need to also adjust the specs that are struggling because of their idiocy. Saying “Prot and Holy are so good, so we can’t buff Ret” is one of the stupidest comments a blue post has ever made in the 20 year history of Blizzard, it’s on par to “don’t you guys have phones” “you think you do, but you don’t” ect.
Looking at the patch notes, I might be missing something but I don’t see a single ret nerf beyond the removal of Seal of Blood in any of the major patches.
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Patch_3.1.0
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Patch_3.2.0
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Patch_3.3.0
In fact, I would say that if only ret was adjusted, and it went back to its 3.1 state for ulduar, they would be exactly the same as they are now.
We would still be forced into running warlock stack comps for yogg0 as 3.1 is when they started to pop off.
Warriors would be almost exactly where they are now as 3.1 is when arpen changed and TG got its -10% penalty. They would simply lose ~50% of the value of armored to the teeth.
DK’s are the only really variable spec as it was changed heavily through the xpac.
Melee spec’s weren’t really balanced much in this xpac, and ret certainly won’t even be good in ICC, people just seem to think they were tuned around ICC/Shadowmourne, but in reality they are going to be VERY LOW damage relative to other classes.
Even in ICC back in 2009 ret was very much bottom to middle of the pack, and people sucked at playing most classes/specs. I would say that ret is so simple that it was probably frequently played at skill cap, people in ICC even used AHK to try and queue DS procs, so it’s not like people were playing ret poorly. DKs however were likely played well under skill cap as people simply didn’t even know what was best; people presumably weren’t even aware of how broken gargoyle is/was.
The problem isn’t the classes or the patches, the problem is we have near perfect hindsight and a MUCH better system for propagating information to players(discord). Back in 2009 we never knew what a patch was going to bring for class tuning, so every class was both good/bad to have rostered in case they become the new FOTM. Original 3.0 wotlk hpally for instance couldn’t have multiple beacons on 1 target, and it didn’t transfer overhealing, then by 3.2 they had a strong raid cd and the highest and most consistent HPS potential. No one could have predicted these class changes. Since we are in the final balancing we don’t have to guess if ret will be good/bad we simply know they won’t be good for anything beyond bringing a raid cd a pally buff and a BOP. And yes, they will be bottom of the barrel next to ele in ICC, but damn it will feel good pressing divine storm on procs.
Nice only looking at major patches, but there were nerfs between the major patches:
Patch 3.0.3
- Crusade: No longer applies damage bonus twice to critical strikes.
Patch 3.0.8
- Divine Shield: The 100% attack speed penalty has been replaced by a 50% reduction to all damage caused.
Patch 3.0.9
- Divine Plea: The amount healed by your spells is reduced by 50% (up from 20%), but the effect can no longer be dispelled. (This was a huge nerf to our utility, especially when the very next patch made it dispellable again)
Patch 3.1.0
-
Fanaticism reduced to 3 ranks for 6/12/18% bonus and 10/20/30% threat reduction(This bonus used to go to 25% crit)
-
Repentance no longer resets the paladin’s melee swing timer(Extra melee swings = more dps)
-
Righteous Vengeance reduced to 3 ranks for 10/20/30%. The damage done by this talent no longer receives modifications from effects that increase or decrease damage done by a percentage(This was a 40% talent prior and no longer getting modifications speaks for itself)
Patch 3.2.0
- Seal of Blood: This ability has been removed(huge nerf)
- Crusader Strike: Damage reduced to 75% weapon damage to match the new 4-second cooldown. Mana cost reduced to 5% of base mana(This used to be 110% weapon damage on a 6 second cooldown, this was later buffed in the 4.0 patch to do 120% weapon damage at 4.5 second cooldown)
Patch 3.2.2
- Seal of Corruption and Seal of Vengeance: These seals will now only use the debuff stacks generated by the attacking paladin to determine the damage done by the seal and by the judgement(might seem like a bug fix, but this is how it was working for the entire expansion prior to this big nerf and heavily discouraged having multiple Rets)
Ok thanks for proving that even without the small nerfs, ret would still be bad damage.
Ret is braindead. You guys remember it being better than it actually is because everyone was bad, so ret looked better.
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I only showed the major patches because they are the only relevant ones. 3.1 isn’t even relevant considering we are going into 3.1, so really the only patches that would matter to look at are 3.1.x and 3.2+. Ret had the 3.1 changes during original ulduar.
You read this wrong, resetting your swing timer means if you used repent and were 99% through a swing timer, it would reset it to 0%. This means ret actually does more damage now, but gets punished because they have a higher chance to land a hit on a mob they just repentenced.
Not as big as you think considering it actually led to many deaths on bosses and paladins had to refrain from using them on some fights/phases or risk griefing their raid. “Sorry I died on p3 Iron council and healed the boss, I got an rng crit streak while in a rune of power with wings up”.
This is basically a wash. You cast it 33% more often and remove the dead globals in your rotation making it slightly less brain dead. 33% More frequent casts but -33% damage per hit, it would only be a dps loss if it means you are clipping other globals now, but thats not really the case.
Also not a huge nerf as it just meant you were more punished for seal swapping. As far as I can tell this basically just means if paladin A and B are both attacking the boss and paladin A has 2 stacks but paladin B has 5 stacks then paladin A’s damage is calculated as if they had 5 stacks. It might read like its the summation of their stacks, but I’m fairly certain is just took the max(allStacks).
Even if this is true, it only makes up 5-6% of your damage currently and buffing it by 33% would only be a net 1-3% damage increase.
Nothing that has been changed 3.0.x to 3.3.5a is so major that it brings paladins from middle of the pack to the bottom of the barrel. This is simply caused by ret being bottom of the barrel with warriors in t7-8. Honestly if blizzard had released with 3.0.0 ret paladin, we probably wouldn’t see a difference in dps tier as the summation of these changes is only ~4-6% increase in damage done. You even listed the 3.0.8 change as being a nerf but its literally a near infinite damage increase while bubbled because you couldn’t even auto attack with a -100% attack speed penalty.
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alert rets may now participate in ulduar hm
Sorry to see the Ret buff is living rent free in your mind, but we did need something.
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Threads like these helped you get buffed! This thread was in the eyes of the blue men for weeks. I do take partial credit.
I think you give too much credit to the forums. I’m more convinced that the true decider was the results of their internal testing, live data, and internal debates Q/A on subjects like this.
Careful yet simple word choice was used to antagonize and provoke while making the devs reflect on the situation