Tyrande's Arc: Story Circles, and why they don't always work

So, as I was watching the newest cinematic, it occurred to me that this entire plot with the burning of Teldrassil, Ardenweald and Elune’s intervention or lack thereof was mostly set up to give Tyrande a Story Circle.

What’s a Story Circle, you ask?

Created by Dan Harmon of Community/Rick and Morty fame and loosely based on Joseph Campbell’s Monomyth/Hero’s Journey, it’s all the rage with writers these days and is a very popular structure for making stories be story-shaped. Basically, the protagonist or focal character exists. They want something. They set out to get that thing, and face challenges. They adapt. They get what they wanted…and they pay a price for it. Then they realize that what they thought they wanted wasn’t actually what they wanted all along, and change and growth happen.

Here’s someone explaining it all a lot better than I can:

So Tyrande wants revenge for Teldrassil. She leaps into the portal. She faces challenges, and confronts Sylvanas. She is beaten back as Elune’s power fails her. Elune finally comes down and directly offers her the vengeance she wants, or to give up on that and opt for regrowth. Tyrande realizes that she doesn’t actually want revenge, and moves forward.

Story circle! /jazzhands

Here’s the problem, though.

Each circle is always overlaid by other circles. If all the circles are working together, you get the inner workings of a complex machine where the gears turn other gears and fit together. This is easiest to accomplish in works created by one writer, like book series. The Game of Thrones books (the books). The Harry Potter universe. The Lord of the Rings universe.

But if you have a circle, laid on top of a square, laid on top of a funny triangle shape, and parts of the circle are hidden or missing or happen offscreen or are filled in by other media, it doesn’t work. This can happen when there are a lot of writers who all have different ideas on the characters and where the story should go, or the single writer is just kind of winging it, looking for heavy story beats without properly setting them up or any consideration to the broader story.

Story circles written by multiple writers on one project work best in two, fairly specific scenarios. One, in a show like Rick and Morty where there’s a bunch of writers, but everything is sort of “reset to zero” with each episode and only passive nods are given to any change, growth and story development. So things don’t need to fit together in the long term, just for a single episode before the slate is largely wiped clean. This kind of structure largely isn’t possible in one big continuous world. The format of a MMO makes it hard to “start a new episode” that just ignores most of what came before.

OR, the other scenario is where you have a strong, central showrunner calling out the broad shots from above, supervising and enforcing codes on the overall construction. Like in a Kevin Feige situation, where his guidance has kept the MCU shambling together with passable amounts of discontinuity and duct tape into a story that largely works as a whole, at least to the point that people can largely suspend disbelief and just roll with it. Compared to the DC…CU? Where each director just kind of takes a stab at their own story and doesn’t bother to work with what was laid out by the others much at all. And this isn’t just speculation, several writers and directors on DC movies have complained about this in public.

So, to wind this down back to the situation with Tyrande, she has a pretty defined Story Circle. But how does it interact with Sylvanas’s circle? What about Elune’s? The Jailer’s? We’re missing cogs, and the shapes don’t necessarily fit.

Knowing what we know about the way stories get made for the game inside Blizzard, I’d say a couple of factors are the main culprits in the disconnect in how they clearly wanted it to go, and the way her story was received. One, while the broad strokes of the story are dictated by one person or a small team, tons of it is written by quest writers, writers in other mediums like Christie Golden, and by the writers that fill in low-level in-between events, between the big moments that they do cinematics for, and I’m not sure how well all of those separate writers communicate with each other - especially the external ones. And two, they’re not putting in the time, effort and money to laying out all of the necessary pieces of the story, which has been a problem for a very long time, but only seems to be getting worse. And I’m not even talking, like, having the big story beats in a book instead of in a cutscene. It’s nonsense, but at least there’s a place to go to find out what’s going on. I’m talking more about - what is the Jailer’s primary motivation? What were the sigils that he’s going for, and why are they important? If they can just remake the Tear of Elune, what’s the big whoop? These things may eventually, retroactively turn up in other media, but for now they’re skipping the vegetables of plot setup and laying out character motivation and worldbuilding so that they can get to the dessert of big emotional showpiece cutscenes, and the end result is that the punch of those scenes is mitigated.

For a classic example, the story goes that back in the day, Afrasiabi dictated that Garrosh should be made into a sympathetic character, but didn’t back it up with filling everyone in on the story beats that he was looking to fill in with that directive, or where the story was going from there. So the quest writers knocked it out of the park in Cataclysm, having him focused on honor and proving himself, but then when the eventual plan to have him do a face-heel turn was revealed, it didn’t fit with what they’d previously laid out.

It’s hard to say if it’s a budget thing or a problem with the “showrunner” not putting in the elbow grease. But long story short (too late!) I can see what they’re trying to do. I’m just not convinced that it’s working.

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I really think it’s an audience problem and not a writing problem.

There was a ton of forum outrage about how Elune “intentionally sacrificed her people” so that the Winter Queen could have the souls, when that’s really a completely impotent analysis.

Gods have never intervened in the war on behalf of war, at best we see evil gods influencing individuals for their own machinations (troll cults). So the Elune blame-game and whether she was passively or actively complicit really only holds up if we blame every god in the game for every atrocity in the game.

The point Anduin makes for the audience is that even if some things may be influenced or pre-ordained or some decisions may be made by others without our consent, we / the people of Azeroth have lots of choices and agency of our own every day. Just because Sylvanus gets screwed by Arthas or has part of herself hostaged by Zoval doesn’t mean she didn’t have choice and agency when she burned the World Tree, blighted her own people in Undercity, abducted faction leaders and enslaved Anduin.

The Winter Queen didn’t know about the Arbiter when she sent a request for help, and Elune sends NE souls to the Shadowlands instead of normal wispy-NE renewal not knowing that either, but Winter Queen promises the souls sent to the maw will not be in vain (both because of player efforts to rescue them and some yet unforseen higher purpose).

The problem though, is that nuance is lost on the audience. Some of this I think has to do with limited comprehension ability of the audience that could be fixed, as you say, by really putting more effort into including supplemental story elements.

But the bigger part of it IMO is this Warcraft community is full of toxic people who love to be outraged, and who will tear down any story, class buff or nerf with ferocity no matter how good or well intentioned it was. A lot of the “this story is bad or badly told” comes from people who do get what’s going on but willfully act like character motivations are completely different than what they are for the sake of being outraged.

Christie Golden doesn’t dictate the story, just puts words to a plot outline she’s given, but gets death threats. That’s the kind of people that post on the boards.

I would love to see more in-game (or even out of game) supplemental story telling, but at this point part of the community is so far gone that they will find a way to twist anything so that they can hate something together.

Re: big whoop about sigils, totally agree that is a great example of something that needs more explanation. These don’t seem so terribly difficult to reforge…

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I think it’s a little from Column A, a little from Column B. The go-to on the part of the community is definitely deep moral outrage out of all proportion to the fact that we’re talking about a story in a video game, and that definitely paints reactions into some frothy corners that will always be frothy, no matter what the story does.

I think that a lot of that has come about because of the way that the story has been handled and told (or not told) for a long time, though. People who were like “Bzuh?” when they heard that Cairne was killed off in a book were like “Hm…” when Garrosh went Full Evil and were like “HMMM…” when huge swaths of the story of Legion hinged on someone not turning to someone right next to them and going “Hey, heads up, the Horde is over the edge of that hill and they’re getting beat down really bad,” and went “WHAAAAAAT” when Sylvanas’s soul (?) was returned to her that we never even knew that she was missing and then went " >:O " when Elune was like “But I sent you a fresh batch of toasty Night Elf souls?”

Some of it was overreactive, or because they lacked understanding to really get what was happening, but if the question is either “Is Blizzard playing secret 4D mastermind chess with their plot that people just don’t understand because it’s so masterful and complex” and “Is Blizzard’s story not being understood because while they have a broad outline and it all makes sense in their heads, they’re not talking to each other and laying out the things in their head in the game so that people can follow along”, I think it’s an Occam’s Razor kind of situation where the latter is probably more likely.

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No, it really isn’t an “audience problem,” whatever the hell that means. They lack quality writers on their team and it shows. There will be at least one player that’s unhappy regardless of how good the story is. However, you also need to realize that it’s not merely one player or a few people complaining. The story has been disastrous over the last two expansions and it’s universally frowned upon for various plot holes and ridiculous story decisions. There aren’t many people that are happy with the story other than certain people like you (which I’ll get to later in my post).

Gods have never intervened? In Warcraft, the “Gods” have been interfering since the very beginning. The Titans, Sargeras, the Jailer, Elune, etc. are all “Gods” that have influenced and shaped Warcraft. Elune has intervened in the past events and she did so during the most recent war as well. You can definitely blame Elune for Teldrassil just as you can blame Sargeras for the atrocious committed by the Burning Legion.

  1. Elune used her powers to pacify Saurfang in order to save Malfurion yet she CHOSE not to interfere with Sylvanas. This is because Elune wanted Teldrassil to burn down. She wanted those Night Elves to die.
  2. Tyrande prayed to Elune to save the Night Elves, but Elune CHOSE to ignore the prayers. Elune CHOSE not to save them. Elune’s intentions back then are made clear in the recent cinematic. She wanted the souls to fuel Ardenweald and Sylvanas helped her with this.

This makes zero sense. You’re comparing the actions of Sylvanas (who had part of her soul sealed) and Anduin (who is now under Zooval’s control) to the Winter Queen and Elune.

I can’t believe you’re actually blaming this on “limited comprehension ability of the audience” lmfao. If we’re talking about choice and agency, didn’t Elune give Tyrande the Night Warrior powers by choice so that Tyrande could get her vengeance? Didn’t Elune take away those same powers as soon as Tyrande came close to getting her vengeance against Sylvanas? Now Elune wants Tyrande to choose between vengeance and renewal… See the problem here? It’s NOT the players. It’s these atrocious writers who can’t seem to remember what they wrote last patch and you’re here blaming it on the audience?

I mean you may be right, the problem may be SOME of the audience. People like you. People that eat up any and all garbage Blizzard throws at you because it’s “Blizzard”, right? Yeah it’s not the writers! It’s the community!

You are far from impartial and it shows. People have the right to be outraged by ridiculous story decisions.

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I think there’s more than one thing going on in the cinematic. I think people that think Elune purposely killed her Night Elves because of the line, “then I have condemned my favorite children…” are completely off the mark. It seemed pretty clear to me that was a line of regret from not knowing, and was not an indication of Elune doing something evil.

On the other hand, I do feel as if some of the storytelling has been atrocious. I find it somewhat difficult to believe that Elune would have done this without investigating a little further. Similarly, I think Sylvanas was portrayed to be extremely gullible in her dealings with the Jailer. The writers are expecting us to assume that Sylvanas was tricked and would have believed him after everything he had done prior without ever actually showing us any of it. It’s really sloppy and really bad storytelling. They’re supposed to “show not tell.”

So, I guess what I’m saying is, some of it is really bad writing. But, some of it is a lot of people making what I would consider to be very strange assumptions based off of the dialog.

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Most of the time the writers just seem to be winging it. Every new expansion tries to be its own story rather than a natural continuation of the previous one. All these crazy revelations we keep getting should feel like explanation and expansion of existing lore. Instead they feel like pointless BS retcons and lead to bewildered conversations like this one.

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Well yes, Elune definitely feels regret but it’s because the souls ended up in the Maw instead of fueling her sister’s realm. That doesn’t mean her actions are not evil. It’s like a mother watching her children burn even though she has the power to save them.

She pacified Saurfang to save Malfurion so this infers she could have possibly pacified Sylvanas and prevented the whole Teldrassil incident. Even if she couldn’t pacify Sylvanas for whatever reason, she could have still saved the Night Elves but she chose not to. Elune had intended for them to die because Ardenweald needed fuel.

And then there’s the whole Night Warrior bs with her granting Tyrande the power in order to get vengeance against Sylvanas, then taking the Night Warrior powers away when Tyrande is about to kill Sylvanas, and then telling the WQ that Tyrande must now choose between vengeance and renewal… I mean Tyrande already chose vengeance when she performed the Night Warrior ritual and became the “wrath of Elune”. Did the writers forget?

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I agree with you about the Night Warrior. I think that whole thing makes no sense at all. It really felt like a lot of stuff was done for shock value. The never ending barrage of crazy “intense” cliffhangers. But, while I think Elune should have investigated what was going on before doing what she did, I do look at this from the framework of a fantasy setting where the end is not really the end. I think it’s possible that she may have thought she was doing this for the greater good, even though it was completely sucky. Knowing that her “children” would have a happier eternity could have been a motivating factor.

Still…there’s plenty of things that don’t add up.

Nope, it most definitely is a writing problem.

/thread

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I think that they really didn’t underline the almost alien-ish, disconnected nature of the Warcraft universe’s quasi-dieties enough for people to get the “What do you mean, people don’t want to be dead?” enough for people to understand that Elune doesn’t think about things like a mortal being. She doesn’t get that suffering and death are bad things that mortals don’t want to do, and that they’d have no idea that they were serving a greater good, or that they should be given a choice in the matter.

The story has made some brushing touches on the concept before, that the inhuman creatures that run the universe are either semi-automatons left to carry out their role without questioning (Algalon the Observer) or entities that are so far above mortals that they don’t really “get” what it is to be mortal (Elune, the Winter Queen, some dragons, the other Titans, etc.) but they clearly haven’t set it up enough to the point that people don’t go “WHAAAAAAAAAT” when an entity like Elune acts like a nonhuman creature.

They really should’ve hit that point, solidly, a few times in this expansion, to set it up so that the payoff wasn’t confusing.

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Oh lord, Tyrande == Sylvanas. Great. Same tears different character. These forums are nothing but trolling.

Agreed. We all knew that Blizzard was going to poop the bed when it came to actually giving the NE some kind of justice; that they would poop the bed when it came to actually punishing Sylvanas for her atrocities.

This entire storyline has taught me exactly what value the writers give to justice - or what they actually think it is. They prop up a genocidal war criminal because of a big pair of zombie breasts, and its grotesque. Every time the next part of this stupid story comes out I somehow don’t think I can be further disappointed, and every time they somehow find a way to make things poopier.

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Ah the strawmans. Who needs to argue what I said when you can just misconstrue it.

I didn’t say Gods weren’t interfering or that they never intervened.

Gods are interfering, but not in the faction war for the sake of the faction war. It’s not like there is a pro-Alliance or Horde god/goddess duking it out with us and tilting the scales. The gods exist and influence individuals for their own machinations, but the Loa aren’t on the battlefield killing night elves for the Horde and Elune isn’t out there blasting undead in the name of the Alliance.

The geopolitics of Azeroth, the attack against the world tree, is not something we have any expectation that Elune or any other god would or should stop, any more than any other god. No one is out here blaming the Titans for “allowing” the manabomb. Characters may pray to gods, but many of them have a very light hand when it comes to the affairs of mortals.

What Sargeras did with the burning legion was not directed at influencing mortal politics.

  1. Your logic also means Elune chose to let the Horde overrun many night elf lands over the years or that the Light chose to allow the Draenei to be annihilated or enslaved. If you assign this passive lack of interference a guilty action, then you have to do the same for every god and every instance they could have altered. If gods intervened every time something wrong happened, then Sylvanus would be right, players/ people of Azeroth would have no agency. But that is not the universe we live in. They interfere with mortals only on very limited select basis, and we have yet to meet a single god in game that is infallible, omniscient or all powerful. Elune calming one individual is not the same stopping an army with torches and flaming catapults, and her ability to influence Sylvanus who was already imbued by death and the Jailer is probably a lot different than her ability to influence Saurfang.

It’s your opinion that Elune wanted Teldrassil to burn and the Night Elves to die. Thats not something that’s actually said, it’s something you are inferring, and the probability that is an accurate inference seems pretty low.

  1. Because, as in #1, Gods don’t sweep down and drastically tilt the scales of the Alliance/Horde war at whim.

Again, it’s your opinion that she wanted them to die for Ardenwield. It seems more likely that the blame for their death lies solely on their murderers, that Elune and other gods have boundaries when it comes to influencing the war, and that once they had died what happened to their souls was up to her, so she sent them to the Arbiter to decide.

I think the story is campy, there are plenty of holes, and parts of the story I really dislike. But clearly you know my mind better than me because I disagree with you on this particular instance and I’m just some yukyuk that gobbles up every Blizzard story.

I loved this weeks story. Thought it was great. The banter between the covenants was hilarious and the sister stuff was really great with big cannon implications.

Not a fan of the “Stonewright all of a sudden becoming a former night warrior”, or “Sylvanus getting a sympathy arc for having had her soul in jar under Zovaals desk.” I’m really on the fence about how bad the whole “Zoval was behind Arthas the whole time and Arthas was actually resisting his orders AND maybe using the scourge to protect Azeroth from cosmological forces beyond our knowledge.”

But go ahead and think what you want. I’m not interested in changing your mind, just correcting the record on what you’re misconstruing about my opinion.

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Are they going “oh better not interfere don’t want to seem bias”? LMAO give us a break. Elune empowered Tyrande during the war against Horde. The Alliance was victorious at Dark Shore because of it. Your little comment about “Gods are interfering, but not in the faction war for the sake of the faction war” is so wrong and pure misrepresentation of facts.

You started your horrendous post with, “ah the strawmans” yet this entire paragraph is nothing but one fallacy after another. No one expected Elune to have anything to do with the burning of Teldrassil but the fact is, she did.

This entire paragraph becomes moot seeing as how Elune did play a role in the war against the Horde.

  1. She saved Malfurion by pacifying Saurfang.
  2. She empowered Tyrande with the “wrath of Elune” and drove back the Horde at Dark Shore. This is aiding the Alliance if you’re still having a tough time grasping what I am getting at.

All of this happened. There are no speculations here whereas your entire post is one assumption after another.

In my opinion? No, sweetie it’s not my opinion. This is yet another factual piece from the lore itself. Elune said so herself in the new cinematic that she was trying to help the Winter Queen by sending her the souls from Teldrassil. She let the tree burn. She allowed the Night Elves to die so they could be fed to Ardenweald. This is a fact. I am not making this up. Elune had the power to save the Night Elves, she had the power to pacify Sylvanas, but she chose not to because she needed those Night Elves to die for Ardenweald.

Again, it’s not my opinion. This is what actually happened in the lore. It’s in the new cinematic.

Yes, you do gobble up anything Blizzard throws at you. You were okay with blaming the playerbase as if it’s our fault for having this terrible story full of plot holes, questionable character actions, forgetful characters, etc.

You should probably apologize to the player base for suggesting something so vile as “nuance is lost on the audience. Some of this I think has to do with limited comprehension ability of the audience”.

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The only saving grace Tyrande has is her nice set of rack. She is nothing more than a sex toy eye candy, nobody takes her seriously as a leader.

I think the biggest issue here is that like you said, it’s not clear in game that the reason why Night Elves become wisps is specifically due to their connection with Elune.

The implication that comes off is moreso that Elune purposefully didn’t help the Night Elves because Ardenweald needed soul juice, and that if not for the anima drought she otherwise would’ve intervened. I much prefer your reading of it, that she simply didn’t keep them as wisps and sent them to the Shadowlands, and that she wouldn’t have intervened regardless because she’s a goddess and such a thing is below her, so I very much hope that’s what they actually intended.

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There are some good points in this topic. Likes have been distributed.

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You know this is going to end with Tyrande and Sylvanas scissoring in a moon well right?

Audience problem. Sure. :roll_eyes:

I’m sure Micheal Bay says that when people talk to him about Transformers and Joe Schuemaker says that when they talk about Batman and Robin.

When a filmmaker receives the Golden Raspberry, he attributes the achievement to “an audience problem”, never to the fact that he created something unpalatable and in bad taste.

She needs to die, her character get soooooooooo many 2nd chances after consistent failures.