@Vitadin
I think you missed the memo that Glimmer was completely removed from the spec?
Yeah my mistake I misread that.
Nice to see them focusing power into the spenders finally. Now we just need Holy Shock to do actual healing and maybe eliminate some of the conditionals. Good direction to go. Removing Glimmer is a bit sad, the playstyle of microing the Glimmer was pretty fun.
Healing multiple people will also be a concern (more than it already is) due to losing that passive source. Like I don’t see how we heal multiple people at once without wings besides being forced to take EF. Still worrying logging on the beta and seeing our abilities heal for like 5% of my hp, I really don’t understand what they want for healers because damage doesn’t seem any less spikey, at least not in keys.
Good to see on the beta they’ve finally fixed Tyr’s not benefitting from wings bonus healing even if that spell is so weak now we probably won’t even use it. Wings bonus healing hasn’t worked with Tyr’s since the rework and still doesn’t on live.
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Removing Glimmer is good, but at the same time removing that passive heal, along with nerfing Beacon could make Herald the default choice out of desperation for a HoT.
I really hope Holy Power finishers become a bit more dynamic, and Holy Shock/SotR(Denounce) gets an offensive DoT mechanic attached to it. =/
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Kinda pissed to see solo glimmer removed. I loved using it as dmg dealer. Only thing they should of done is refound mana done when used for dps and it would of been perfect. But oh well they cant fix Hpal mana properly it seem
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I’m a Glimmer fanboy so I’m in shambles. :<
The synergy between Glimmer and Rising Sunlight was fun.
Also I started holy in BFA, so for me it’s the quintessential holy paladin identity. Which someone mentioned before, hpal has a shattered identity. If you started holy in classic, vs in Cataclysm, vs Legion, you’ll have your own idea of what holy’s identity should be.
Glimmer was objectively good at mitigating overheals though. Actually, that’s just what a HoT does. So yeah, the kit’s missing an effective “HoT” or functional equivalent. Tyr’s on a 90 sec cd isn’t it.
I wouldn’t mind the removal if I could more easily pivot Beacon of Light and Beacon of Faith. Those cost a GCD. and Virtue is fine it just costs hella mana. Personally, I wish Divine Favor was a Beacon pivot. Especially with Glistening Radiance moving to proc Saved by the Light - I’d like to move that bonus around.
That or like, what if cashing in on Infusion plopped down a Beacon? Basically what I’m getting at is Beacons are functional HoTs. And they are arguably identity defining. They just have user experience issues in their current state.
I didn’t love or hate Glimmer, it was just the application that felt awful. The fact that there weren’t different buffs and debuffs for allies and enemies just felt bad, imo.
It just felt dated and I feel like Paladins are still struggling with this, it’s just hard to comment about it after a buff cause buffs feel good… 
Admittedly, some of these changes are good, however, a large majority of the classes’ baseline issues haven’t been solved.
- We still lack class fantasy
- We still have a crappy Class Tree
- We still lack a solid reason to hit CS and HoW
- We still lack a true Melee playstyle (2h weapon w/e)
And now, our cap stones and talent builds will be even more one dimensional. Our talents aren’t really full of customization choices, but rather, just bland minor buff talents.
Whether you are a raiding paladin, mythic+ paladin, “melee” Paladin or whatever, your talent choices are going to be 99% the same.
Being a 3 button Class is fine, but when all 3 of those buttons do the same thing… =/
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Problem 1:
- Our Class Tree still feels dated in talents and layout. We have a lot of repetitive talents still and we have very few interesting choice nodes.
- Removing Glimmer further devalues the excitement and use of Divine Toll, an already extremely boring talent.
Problem 2:
- Our class tree does not really hone in on a niche of our class, or emphasize a Class Strength. Additionally, talents don’t really emphasize a spec strength.
- As a Holy Paladin, how does specing into the right side of the Tree make you feel more like a Retribution Paladin? What talents are emphasizing this?
Problem 3:
- Blizzard nerfed Beacon Healing and removed Glimmer, this efficiently nerfed our ability to AoE Heal/Heal over time.
- This puts more emphasize on requiring to spec HotS to make up for this lack of gameplay.
Problem 4:
-
Our Holy Power Finishers got buffed, but they didn’t become more dynamic.
- Building 3 Holy Power to cast a unique ability should feel good, not I casted 3 Single Target Heals so that I can cast another single target heal… right?
Problem 5:
- Hand of Divinity is still gated behind another active, unrelated ability and Divine Favor is now a passive, removing player choice and skill.
Problem 6:
- Breaking Dawn still exists.
Problem 7:
- Baking Rising Sunlight into Wings is good, because Wings should feel like a powerful ability… but this ultimately feels like it clashes with Sanctified Wrath and Avenging Crusader
- Sanctified Wrath and Rising Sunlight feel a bit redundant with the ability to fire off more Holy Shocks, and Avenging Crusader feels bad to prioritize Holy Shock over the more melee centric buttons.
- Having 2 powerful Avenging Wrath choice nodes would feel great, having 3 mediocre ones that conflict does not…
Problem 8:
- We lack talent choices. We’re in an awkward spot of more meaningful talents are being removed than are being added.
- It’s not unrealistic to find ourselves in a spot where we are all playing the same talent build in 99% of all situations because our talents aren’t gameplay choices, but dictated by tunning.
Problem 9:
- Lightsmith still has very underwhelming side talents throughout the tree that focus on damage, or unmeaingful things.
Problem 10:
- Herald of the Sun focuses almost exclusively on Holy Power finishers and adds a ridiculous amount of modifiers, that are arguably more synergetic with this “new Hpal” then before.
- Can’t really remove Glimmer, buff the crap out of Holy Power finishers, than leave Herald with 8/11 talents effecting finishers. >.>
Once these get solved, then heck yeah. I’ll rock the crap out of Hpal again.
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What immediately comes to mind when i think of the soul of a Ret pala, the one thing that really makes me feel like true Ret Paladin ready to smite evil, the really boiled down distilled quintessence of Retribution, i think of…
[Touch of Light]
/s
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5% Dr for beacon, now we have to precast before DMG. Could it be off the GCD though please!!! With glimmer gone I see no argument not to take it off the gcd
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For real. So far I have only two complaints, everything else feels like good changes.
10% of Light’s Protection lost, so we cant give that to a single target. Some people might say its minor, but I loved being able to play with that around. It’s kinda less restrictive because before LP incentivised you to now use Holy Shock on more than 1 ally if you wanted to keep that 10% on tank atleast or before a one shot, so you had to be really careful about how you generated HoPo or spot healed.
That and probably Virtue cost. Its still insanely expensive. We have now more mana refunds in our tree, but without DB mana, theres no way to truly offset its cost.
Problem 1: Probably. However I would still see one build that works/plays better than what we got in S3/S4 of DF, essentially one build only that also felt awful to play. Our Class can be redesigned? Probably, not gonna argue with that, but feel like there’s a lot of classes in the same boat honestly.
I disagree with the take on Divine Toll. The ability has never been stronger and feels both powerful and meaninful to take now since Holy Shock was buffed substantially, DT was as well. Been testing it and now it actually heals.
Problem 3: I’m also worried abouth how Herald just takes our Kit and buffs it more. This can lead into more Herald nerfs or nerfs to the changes we just got. However, our AOE its also stronger now due to stronger direct healing + beacons, and a stronger Divine Toll. Take into account how numerically weak glimmer was, it was basically 0. If they buffed glimmer, then they had to nerf other passive healing sources, like beacons or active abilities even more. Something had to go, because if all are strong, then its S2 Paladin all over again.
Problem 5 AND 6: True. Divine Favor makes kind of sense, but HoD doesnt. Breaking dawn should be baseline.
Problem 7: Also true, specially how they reworked AC just recently. Again spec tree not being exactly well designed.
Problem 8: While true,again, think its better to have a working build that plays better, that only 1 that plays horribly. This doesnt mean adjuments/changes/improvements can be done in the future. It’s only a start.
Problem 9 and 10: Totally in agreement.
I just feel like it was important for Divine Toll to cast Holy Shock specifically because it applied Glimmer as a secondary effect.
Without Glimmer, Divine Toll could read:
“Heal 5 targets for X and generate Y Holy Power”
Divine Toll itself just isn’t very visually appealing, nor does it feel very directional. Holy Shocks are just casted on whoever within 40 yards. I just feel like with the lost of Glimmer, it could become something more.
And then with Rising Sunlight being attached to it, there are times when it just feels like overkill, if that makes sense?
Cast 5 Holy Shocks → Triple round burst Holy Shock just feels like an overwhelming amount of Holy Shocks. Like a low sense of Spell Diversity, again, if that makes sense.
I’m not saying I know the answer, it’s just to me, our cooldowns don’t feel great in synergy.
If I said you have;
- Avenging Wrath
- Avenging Wrath: Might
- Avenging Crusader
- Sanctified Wrath
- Rising Sunlight
- Awakening
- Divine Toll
- Blessing of Summer
- Tyr’s Deliverance
Can you condense these 9 talents down to:
- Class talent: ___________ (Divine Toll)
- Wings choice talent 1: ___________ vs ___________ (AW:M vs AC)
- Wings choice talent 2: ___________ vs ___________ (Rising Sunlight vs Sanctified)
- Tyr’s Deliverance
- Melee Centric Talent: __________