The 27+ buttons with potions and special gear buttons too much
The AMP is too high for too many buttons
We have useless talents
The whole idea of an tank is reduce damage basically and the red stagger gameplay goes against that idea for more damage and feels like the healer have to deal with that.
They haven’t really change throughout expacks. We do get more overall stats and we hit the 75% stagger cap easier. I noticed it though them and feel basic the same since legion and up. Just with different spells.
The 27+ buttons is too much as an tank or an spec, We have to worry about tank stuff, maintaining buffs and brews, rotation, defensive, potions and gear buttons on top of the 27+ buttons. its not steamline like other specs.
Most people would say it feel like you are doing wack-a-mole with your spells. Even some are doing so little for you. Its insane.
We have an few talents that are completely useless, movement speed or painful to use.
So basically you don’t know how to manipulate stagger and following the awful guide telling you mastery is our worst stat which it isn’t btw it is actually really useful cause it give damage increase and the increase to our dodge mechanic. And crit isn’t really needed for tanking survivability beside the increase to damage and healing. But if your not mitigating the damage coming in while keeping aggro on the mobs your tanking it wrong. And buttons gosh forbid you have to press a button to survive a pack pull…
I never said mastery was our worst stat it an poor design stat, becuase you rather get vers and crit. mastery is good on paper but in-game its bad. You have an cap on what you can dodge. if you have 33% mastery and 20% dodge baseline you have 53% most of the time. but you can cap dodge and thats waste(wowhead say this although its the best damage reduction) of stats that can increase your crit or vers and that would increase your overall damage and healing taken.
with stagger, staying in red stagger is not good gameplay any means. You are NOT reducing any more damage if your goal is to stay in red 90% of time for damage.
and pressing 5+ for reducing damage is fine its the other 22+ buttons for damage is stupid. No other spec have this much top of have to maintain buffs and brews
I think I know what you want to say, but some points I would like to add:
and 6. The “red stagger Gameplay” is a non issue. you can be top 5% Brew without it. Sure at the very top you have an edge if you do something like this, but lucky crits on the right abilities has more impact than this. (I am currently rank 7 Brew in M+ and usually around 95 in mythic raiding, without doing this). I also don’t know anyone who does this. (even world rank 1 Brews purify)
We scale with gear? I don’t know what you mean with this one. Tanks generally scale less than DDs with secondary stats etc. but that ist true for every tank.
and 8. I love the current playstyle, especially the buttons. only things i dislike are BDB and cat statue. BDB does no initial dmg and it is harder to justify an empty GCD at the start of an pull. You might lose aggro. But if it would deal dmg it would basically just be another Exploding Keg. Cat Statue has the same issue. No aggro for us and it feels empty.
AMP? do you mean APM/ CPM? we are an Energy based spec, so our GCD is one second and not hasted, which is quite nice! Brew has a rhythm in playstyle due to this and BoK, which is quite satisfying.
and 10. every spec has useless talents. And they are getting rid of ours in TWW. The new class tree is one of the best class trees overall and should be an example for other class trees. You get every “power” and then have spare points to really choose from what you want/ need in a given situation.
stagger cap? Not sure what you mean with that, but the specc feeling the same “just with different buttons” is what specc identy is about. This is on purpose. I you want another “feel” you can play another tank. No need to change ours and lose spec identity.
like I said before. Brew has a rhythm. it is like playing music. 1,2,3,4, You start every sequence with BoK and then fill the rest with what you need/ what you specced. You can preplan every sequence. There is absolutely NO whack a mole playstyle involved. We have no sudden procs that need to be pressed etc. Everything is predetermined. THIS IS GREAT.
I know we purify the goal is to stay in red stagger in m+ although you are taking alot of damage. With ToN you are push into that for more damage. It goes into a place that vengeance (cata/mop) where you are push to stay in an risk in where your job to reduce damage taken.
I mean as we don’t get much stronger as the xpack goes on. We dont really have an cap to hit or speed up. We just get more stats to do the same thing just little easier or same.
I don’t like it as we have 27+ buttons to press and than potions, trinkets and weapons. So its noticeable tiring to have to press right in the right order in the start of an pull (on top of the others stuff we have to worry about its insane). I known its about the game but it shouldn’t be as worse like an dps when we have an few secs to set up. I rather see less buttons and each button mean more, chi wave? RJW? FB? Cat Statue?
Action per minute, Brew is higher than most fast dps. It feels good but not the APM in keys or some long raid fights.
I am talking about Graceful Exit, Staggering strikes, Celestial Flames, FB: Determination. Where 99% of the time you don’t need it in all content. Theres no point to have them unless they have very small part in special fight. But they don’t.
I am talking about the 70%-80% soft cap, This where i am saying we don’t really scale with gear just more stats where everything gonna get harder than it feels the same until you push high keys you actual get hit hard to red stagger. if you are an M+ 2 player and an 22+ the spec basically feels the same . Just do more damage and more Hp. Where the 2 would get you to red stagger like the 22.
The whole spec is fine but the idea of getting set for an pull like bonedust brew and WoO and cat statue where they dont really do damage in the few secs to do more burst damage is insane. Its not good desgin where you need to set up alot pre pull and the few first secs. I understand Rjw pre pull but thats it and just be able to full dps (besides popping Bone and WoO) to get agrro is more fun but thats do more damage is not fun aka button bloat. Make us do that damage with 1-3 button not 3-5.
I know what you meant. I just don’t know anyone who does this on purpose in push keys. I check some logs from time to time and the risk doesn’t seem worth it in high keys at least. There is too much treatening stuff going on and if it isn’t threatening then there is no need to purify, cause you aren’t in danger anyway.
that is just a difference in preferance. Like I said I like it. I just wanted to give a different viewpoint. I only like that many button because we have no proc based ability (and thus no whack-a-mole playstyle. The same is true for APM.
I can totally see that these things can be off putting, but then the easier solution would be to just switch to a tank that doesn’t have this.
Many specs have useless talents and that is unavoidable. I agree in general though and they are working on it. Staggering Strikes in particular is not a useless talent though. it is completely avoidable and it is very good for easier content, which is something brew has kinda struggled with in the past.
The difference between 70% and 80% is huge. in the first case you get 30% to the face in the second one it is 20%. That is a 33.33% decrease in damage taken immediately. Things that reduce dmg and are in those ballparks often seem like a “cap” etc. at first glance, but they aren’t. Just remember from 98% DR ot 99% DR is only 1%, but in reality you would take half as much dmg. This effect is in place with stagger as well. There is no reachable soft cap, the number looks smaller, but the increase in effective HP/ tankiness is the same. This also counts for Dodge for example.
Since I don’t play RJW in keys, my “getting aggro” thing is: KS, BoK, BoF roll to next pack. These 3 abilities do so much aggro that you don’t need much more. (in a 14 AV I pressed it on a pack once and moved down the stairs. I lost aggro when they were at like 50% health (i didn’t hit them further on purpose to see how long the aggro lasted)). They were at Once they are grouped you use your CDs.
I have seen this in BFA, SL, and now. I don’t disagree with the purify but its is an thing that does not make sense to an tank to use damage taken to do more damage now but yet it an huge gap if you do it in a key than not. You won’t see it in logs because its lowers damage (this thing). Trell did it in BFA even you would kite.
I agree, not an proc base but 27+ is still much as an normal spec even an tank lol
I know but if they have the data that its not being use in 99% of content theres an problem but yet didnt change them whole xpack. I know brew did struggled but that was an tuning problem with stagger not an actual the spec.
Math… XD I just noiced that you can’t really go past 80% without an huge dump as agi and thats an soft cap just like normal stats DRs
Thats what I like as a brew but it seems like theres an huge falls in the simplest things. As dodge where theres no feeling difference form low gear to high gear brew. I do feel tanker in lower keys but in keys where i get as hard when i was less geared felt the same.
thats an good test but makes me feel like i have to set up with all this buttons to get arggo when i am going pass to pull more. Even with pugs. Thats why i have problems with the button bloat.
in BFA it was because of hot trub? or something like that… didn’t play much back then. In SL it was because of what is now improved Niuzao. That thing was stupid and I despite that with all my heart. In Mythic raid I purposely didn’t let my Co tank get aggro in order to increase my dmg taken. I tanked Anduin Mythic intermission without taunting in order to receive 500% more dmg. my Niuzaos stomps were very high. Fun numbers, but ver stupid gameplay. And they removed it with the current TWW iteration.
It was not because of DFB and ToN. the impact of red/yellow/ green stagger on those talents is not that big (sure, it has some influence but crit luck plays a way bigger role) But keep in mind, that other tanks have this as well. Warrior can opt out of def stance, or spend ressources on dmg instead of defensives. This is on purpose, because you can opt into taking more dmg but doing more dmg, which can be good, but often than not is bad (like with niuzaos case or hot trub, but not with ToN/ DFB).
You can look at stagger just like Armor. The higher you get the less the % number gains, but in fact it is constant in regards to your survival. There is no reachable caps afaik, even if it seems that the number plateaus.
All in all we tend to agree on those points:
taking dmg to increase dmg done is ok, but if done wrong it feels bad. I would be fine however if it wouldn’t exists. I would actually love the opposite. pressing defensives right, purify well and playing very good defensively should do the most dmg. This would give an incentive to play a tank well and not like a DD that does survive more. BUT THIS IS NOT POSSIBLE TO BALANCE.
the number of buttons is personal preferance.
Many specs have useless talents (including BRM) and they could iterate on those more often.