Sure, which I did mention later in my response. My comment was in reply to someone saying feral is undertuned; if they were referring to PvP with that comment, they are completely out of touch with reality.
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TWW truly is an embarrassment for Druids, Restoration Druid, Balance Druids especially.
Guardian Druid is a top-performing tank which is probably the only nice thing out of TWW for Druids.
Balance Druid, legitimately is awful, still forced into the eclipse system probably the most requested thing to be removed out of the Boomy community.
- Clunky Rotation, Starfall doesn’t last long, Sunfire falls off like 10 seconds before Moonfire.
- Forced to choose Keeper of the Grove in all scenarios. (PvP, Mythic +, Raid)
- Single Target Builds sometimes make you miss Starfall just cause of a lack of talents.
- DPS feels like crap.
I personally miss my Starfall, affy lock DoT playstyle with Stellar Flare, Moonfire, Sunfire.
Where I could just enjoy a ez playstyle, without overly complex for 0 reward.
The eclipse system is just awful dog trash, whilst an example class just pops a DPS CD and can go burr, meanwhile outside celestial alignment windows I’m rooted on an eclipse system that would just be an active thing that I choose like Inner Light and Shadow where I toggle eclipses.
Or rather just do away with it in general.
Feral
Playstyle whilst is great in PvP it has been severely lacking everywhere else.
In fact the actual gameplay hasn’t changed since MoP which is astonishing.
Notable cringe-worthy things
- No Feral Charge x2
- Skull bash is too short of a range since range change on melee
- Frenzied Regen not being a baseline effect when swapping forms and persisting when Classic SoD has it is cringe
- We have so many repetitive abilities. Swipe 1.0 , Thrash is Swipe 2.0, then we get swipe 3.0 which is brutal slash and swipe 4.0 which is Primal Wrath
- Dead and lackluster talents like Infected wounds, Moonfire cat talent, adaptive swarm, * 2 berserk talents and 2 incarnation which is basically beserk so we got 4 beserk talents.
- Clunky rotation
- ugly effects, sounds and no umph to make u feel like ur playing Feral.
For example Feral Frenzy is just a rake / rip on a 50 sec CD. IT would be awesome if it made u dash to 5 targets applying the DoT. - Rake should Area affect apply and last longer than what it does.
- Thrash hits nothing in cat form
Guardian
Is legit suffering from the same issues as Feral.
- No feral charge x2
- Skull bash is too short of a range since range change on melee
Maul still has that 2-d classic bear in the animation.
You got Raze / Swipe / Thrash? But you just Thrash all day and Raze
You got Maul / Mangle / paulverize
^ Paulverize is just outdated
All the talents seem like they are abilities that should be baseline or combined talents but they legit separated them for 0 reasons to relay nothing.
Like for example …
- Ursoc Endurance barkskin and Ironfur last 2 additional seconds
- Brambles non baseline
- Mangle ??? Talent increasing mangle dmg on bleed targets. Like dude that was baseline in mangle SPELL EXISTENCE WTF IS THIS TALENT
- All the talent bloat doesn’t enable you to make any custom build everything is the same.
- Thrash dependant…
Overall
Fluid Form is not a trainer toggle and doesn’t include skullbash?
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I’ve been enjoying Guardian Druid lately, specifically Elune’s Chosen. I would very much appreciate if they updated Thrash’s spell effect so that it appeared arcane.
Thank you in advance.
I have not been enjoying Feral as much. Class fantasy, rotation, spell effects - they all seem pretty boring. Like they were established long ago and have never changed.
Look into this, would you?
Colonel out
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The changes to Sabertooth and energy regeneration over the past 2 expansions has made significant changes to the gameplay. Not really sure what you’re talking about here…
Brutal Slash replaces Swipe, so I’m not really sure considering them together makes sense. Primal Wrath is not even close to what builders does, so again I’m not sure how it’s just Swipe 4.0. Or are you pretending there isn’t similar styles of abilities across many other melee specs?
I’ll agree with you that thrash versus swipe is pretty similar and probably could be examined for changes.
I’m with you on Infected Wounds and Berserk, but I really don’t know what you want with Lunar Inspiration and Adaptive Swarm. Adaptive Swarm is one of the most flexible, thematic, and outright cool abilities for any spec I’ve played in like a decade.
This is too vague to really offer much feedback on. What makes the rotation clunky in your opinion?
I mean the CD isn’t even that long and can be reduced further. It deals significantly more damage than rake, and is usually better served as an energy regen break.
I do not want this at all. With all the ground effects and frontals that exist in WoW today, Skull Bash’s charge has gotten me killed on more than one occasion. Creating another charge-like ability baked into an ability I might want to use for the damage bump would make that even worse.
While I wouldn’t oppose this, I feel like this would make the rotation much more convoluted when running Brutal Slash. Having the rake application across multiple targets in a pack provides the time for Brutal Slash to recharge.
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I’m speculating here, especially given the astonishingly absent dialogue on these subjects due to a lack of response from Blizzard to their community… I am fairly certain that whoever is developing druids this go-around is intentionally tanking resto and balance in order to encourage players to switch to their “golden child of the quarter” class and increase their earnings from WoW Token sales. Prove me wrong, Blizzard, for the love of all that is good in the world.
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I believe you given Blizz too much credit, as I also did, but I change my mind when I realize that the entire design intent of this season for M+, with all the changes in health pools, was to REMOVE burst damages and supposedly to make healing more SUSTAINED… That was their INTENT according to the 2024/07/09 notes… And they managed to make the OPPOSITE of what they intended with the changes…
Blizz is just awful bro, they’re terrible beyond words…
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1.) It feels still outdated I know the class / spec has went through some fundamental changes everyone has. But it remains bleak compared to counterpart classes like rogue / monk.
For example rogues have 2 vanishes - Druids have none are reliant to be a Nelf for a vanish small dmg amp (clutch and highly wanted in PVP as well)
Rogues has like 9 combo points, and excess usage has save mechanics to store overlap, druid doesn’t have this.
Tiger Rage whilst is a dmg amp rogue counterpart is thistle tea, which rogues have 3 charges.
You mention energy starved, we still are. 
up until a certain crit threshold. I feel like WoD was the best iteration for Feral as the claws of shiv form, castable clones in cast form and just the overall feel and rotation.
2.) I’m just mentioning the repetitive nature of the abilities.
You swap swipe for a harder hitting charge swipe, instead of a innovative ability. Nearly 99% of us are forced to take it in all scenarios.
You take primal wrath which is an awkward scenario and borderline should be a baseline ability because without it there is no cleave build. Its the same struggle with boomkin having to take starfall.
Brutal Slash is often an energy filler and quite simply felt silly for me as a Feral player. I’m energy starved waiting for a new dmg window and the best optimal dmg rotation is to brutal slash a single target?
Its like a hunter multi shotting three times on a single target boss.
3.) I listed lunar inspiration to be baseline like how it is for guardian. Also the interaction is wonky.
If you are guardian you cant moonfire in cat form.
If you are feral and you have lunar inspiration you cant moonfire in bear form.
So odd and feels like a vanilla WoW restriction.
Adaptive Swarm, is amazing appearance wise, but I assumed Wildstalker symbiotic / bloodseeking vines is the new Adaptive Swarm as both abilities RNG apply and dmg / heal amp.
Just seems repetitive. I lowkey wish Adaptive was just something pickable in the base tree to RNG proc off our stuff. I feel like Wildstalker kinda stole the fix for a smoother rotation solution regarding swarm.
4.) Pertaining to clunky rotation
- Can’t cleave rake
- Gotta primal wrath, brutal slash, and thrash, for AoE but it feels lacking. Doesn’t have that umph like when ur a boomkin doing mega cleave starfires and starfalls.
- I personally hate brutal slash down our throats.
5.) Yeah! I have no problem with that but it just applies like rake / rip. lol
6.) Feral Frenzy can make u untargetable like blade dance DH that would be a fix. I think killing spree does that as well for rogues unsure.
Easy solution 
7.) hmm maybe brutal slash applies rake then? 
idk
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I know you cover this is more detail below which I will touch on as well. However, I did want to cover this general point first.
It gets into somewhat dangerous territory to make design changes due to it feeling outdated for some. There is no time limit on good design. Now I’m not saying feral’s design is good, just like outdated, this is going to be purely subjective. Just trying to point out that making a change to a spec just because it worked a while ago risks getting rid of unique designs that appeal to a segment of the player base largely just for the reason of making a change.
For example, 2 of the 3 specs for monk feel like convoluted messes to me. Brewmaster has like 17 active buttons in their rotation, and outside of celestial and purifying brew, you could largely press the buttons at random times and not feel much of a difference. Windwalker simultaneously has a priority list while also not due to its mastery and how chi functions.
Design wise, feral druid has an elegance to how simple the concepts are while still being one of the more complex specs to play correctly. I could teach any player how to feral in like 5 minutes, yet they will still be learning things about the spec 10 hours into playing it. I’m not sure I could make that statement about any other spec that I’ve played in the past decade.
This one I can definitely see your point, and while I wouldn’t turn it down if Blizzard introduced a vanish to feral, I am not personally too bent out of shape about not having one. I think it’s okay for there to be one spec that relies on stealth heavily while another spec uses stealth but isn’t really beholden to it for its tuning. And for PvP, it’s not like feral is always in the dumps even without the stealth; there are times where it absolutely blasts on its own.
Yes, and feral druid wouldn’t function if we have these. Whether you like or hate snapshotting, when it is the primary unique mechanic for the spec, the spec HAS to be heavily energy capped. Feral druid has been experiencing an identity crisis from Legion through DF because of this. You cannot have a primary spec mechanic that’s a complete afterthought due to having 100% uptime on the most important buff and unlimited energy. When you’re always 2 seconds away from fixing a snapshot mistake, yet snapshotting is the primary means of skill expressions for players, the spec design doesn’t work.
To be clear, there may be players who like that style of play more than what we have today, and yeah it sucks that they no longer have that way to play. But if that’s the style they do want, that is basically the description of sin rogue. More importantly for this section, it fundamentally does not work from a design perspective. If Blizzard wants to feral to be a GCD-locked bite-spamming fiesta, snapshotting needs to be replaced with something else. It just does not work mechanically when it doesn’t interact with the action that results in the most damage for the spec, which is how many bites can you get per minute.
What do you have in mind for a more innovative ability? This is pretty common across many specs when it comes to talent X replacing spell Y. It’s not like Chronowarden Evoker is suddenly throwing knives at people with its replacement of Living Flame.
Yeah the frequency by which it’s taken can be an issue, I will give you that. I just think that since it’s a replacement for Swipe, in practice you’ll never be hitting the two highly similar abilities in the same fight.
I do agree it should be baseline, and I’m not really sure why it’s not. I’m not sure what you mean by it being an awkward scenario.
I’m not really sure what you mean by Brutal Slash being an energy filler. It’s by far the hardest hitting builder we have, and by definition builders are supposed to be weak compared to spenders. It’s actually rather nice for me having an ability that replaces a completely useless AOE ability for ST that also functions well in AOE situations. The charges ensures you can’t just spam one button when your DoTs are in a good place and BT has more than 1 charge (or you aren’t running BT).
This comparison doesn’t really work because multishot is never a hunter’s best ST ability to press.
There are all sorts of examples of this with things you can’t do when out of your spec’s preferred form. It seems odd to single out moonfire as the thing that doesn’t make sense. I don’t oppose the logic you’re using, though.
With that said, I’m curious as to where you draw the line regarding when a talent should be baseline versus a talent. Lunar Inspiration seems like the perfect candidate for a talent rather than baseline because it’s a situational ability. By in large, we would never press moonfire in AOE settings even if it were baseline. By making it a talent, Blizzard can tune it higher than if it were baseline because we have to give up something else in order to take it. These things don’t happen in a vacuum; moving something from a talent to baseline will usually have a domino effect of some other changes to compensate.
We have control over where and when Adaptive Swarm goes every 25 seconds without impacting our snapshot. We can also wind up with a dozen out at once if we’re running Unbridled Swarm since the chance is higher than what we get from Vines.
Also, I’m not even sure I understand the concern of having both. We’re a bleed based spec and more generally a HoT based class for heals; having effects that increase these effects makes sense. And again, Adaptive Swarm doesn’t require us to consume a Tiger’s Fury to control when and who it initially goes out to, plus in many situations, isn’t even random on the jump when there is only a single enemy alive.
We will have to agree to disagree here. There is just enough control with Adaptive Swarm for me to feel like it’s not just the random crapshot that are Vines. I can actually play around having or not having Adaptive available; the only Vines that aren’t totally random would be a disaster for me to play around due to needing to commit our most important CD to the cause. And like I said, having both given the spec lives by its DoTs isn’t something I take exception with.
I’m not sure how this makes the spec clunky, perhaps we have different definitions of the term. We have to hit something to build, and I wouldn’t find it any less clunky if that something happens to be spamming Swipe; it would be far more clunky when we run Brutal Slash to have to switch back to Shred in AOE once our Rake snapshot was good and Thrash is rolling.
That’s more of a tuning thing than a design thing. We certainly didn’t lack AOE oomph in DF S1 when feral had a 100% pickrate for MDI.
But even from a design point of view, Blizzard has done an incredible job with spicing up the AOE rotation with Rampant Ferocity and Apex. No longer is our AOE damage just PW spam. Yeah, if we don’t get Apex procs and don’t get enough crits to squeeze bites in between, it can feel dull with how much PW we have to commit. But when we get a few Apex procs inside of a 15 second window in AOE, it feels really good to be able to get all that direct damage while still fitting the AOE theme. Sure the numbers could probably be bumped up a bit for both, but the gameplay is a lot more flavorful than when our only AOE ability that showed up on details was the rip applied via PW.
While this would make it better, it still isn’t going to fully address the problem. It’s the lack of control over where we wind up at the end of it. It’s not just that we can travel through a frontal/swirly in flight, it’s also that we can land on one despite it not being there at the moment we pressed Skull Bash.
DH knows where they are going to wind up with Blade Dance AND have more frequent access to quick movement than feral. Not to mention a much better defensive if something does go sideways. Rogues literally have a Cheat Death if they wind up on something bad, not to mention defensives that allow them to completely avoid all spell damage and most physical damage, if that isn’t an option.
I think there’s a place for a CD to spread Rake around quickly, but don’t really want to see the dominoes that would fall if it’s added to a rotational ability we use frequently.
I also wouldn’t really be too keen on my rotation becoming “spam 1 until 2, wash, rinse, repeat.” Knowing when it makes sense to apply and reapply our DoTs is a big part of the appeal for me with feral. If one of our primary DoTs becomes just a side effect of another ability we’re already pressing, the spec would lose that appeal for me.
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On the topic, if there’s one aspect of Feral AoE I dislike in TWW it’s Bursting Growth. Apex procs can happen at a moment’s notice and ideally, you put the Bite itself onto a target that has vines in order to trigger a Bursting Growth. I absolutely hate seeing an Apex proc and then quickly having to sift through 5-6 targets to find one with vines on it. I would love it if Bursting Growth triggered off Rampant Ferocity.
(This is the part where someone tells me I’m a dummy and it does trigger off Rampant Ferocity and I make that person my best friend forever… please?)
Bees are great though. I love my bees. I love tracking how many bounces they have left and choosing where to send my next swarm. As someone who really REALLY loves the offheals part of Feral, I actually put some thought into which ally they get sent too if the enemy has too many stacks on them. I track my Regrowths and Blooms and tend to send the bees towards an ally who’s injured who already has one of my heals on them (because I pay attention to where those go too.) I’m an anomaly in DPS players in that my most healed player usually isn’t myself, it’s the tank.
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Balance is fine imho. Keeper build is awesome and doing lots of plannable burst. I like finally being able to have consistent burst windows outside of Inkarnation.
Resto feels clunky and they should simply revert to shadowlands in terms of play style and mastery
What is your rotation for keeper? Burst and when trees come back up?
I’m really enjoying Guardian and balance. At least 2/4 specs… most classes I barely ever enjoy more than 1/3.
So I’m quite glad I chose druid and dont feel they are in an embarrasing state - very good in all content so far.
Nope, its a quasi Rampant Ferocity in itself, so it wont trigger off Rampant Ferocity. Sorry sir.
I dont use any name plate addon, but im sure Vines show on them to quickly find one? I too have to sift through a few mobs if i want to play correctly
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I don’t think the devs have read any of our posts. The lack of communication from the devs demonstrates that. I’m saddened that all the time and thought that people have put into our class on these forums have been ignored by the developers.
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they wont ever read constructive feedback either
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Still can’t use fury of elune in dawnbreaker last boss p2. Starting to wonder if Blizzard intentionally sabotaged druid tuning to encourage class swaps. If mage performed subpar, it would be fixed.
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How can you tell though if your snapshot is good or if it fell off? Way back there use to be an add-on for fire mages that tracked your ignite damage so you knew when you had a good Ignite rolling.
I noticed when looking at the logs on warcraft logs that Druids seem to be pretty bottom of the charts and as their ilvl goes they either scale better than Sin or just people with high ilvl are just better players, but feral goes from being meh to pretty solid, especially looking at Mythic where it really shows.
I’m guessing this though is from proper snapshotting more than gear scaling, would this be correct?
There are several WeakAuras out there that track this. Most of the well known packages that include feral druid will give you this information.
Feral scales very well with crit and mastery, more so with less energy to play with as we have in TWW compared to previous expansions.
It’s going to be both. Snapshotting is far more important in TWW than it was for the last few expansions due to us having far less energy. With more energy, we can fix snapshotting mistakes much more easily. But when we might go an entire rip duration with a bad snapshot, that’s going to be a much bigger loss than missing out on 4 seconds of a good snapshot when we had the energy and Tiger’s Fury uptime to correct it.
But then even with correct play, crit allows us faster cycles and more opportunities to squeeze bites into our rotation. Meanwhile mastery makes our bleeds and finishers hit harder.
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In arenas or actual mmo pvp?
I figured it out. And for arenas