Turalyon IS a Good Guy!

[Thadeus-caelestrasz]

@Doness-kargath

Any of them.

Not sure about some. Now do you mean justified as in WHY they occurred or everything done in them? Because those are different questions.

@Doness-kargath

This is a very simplified, and at times, wrong understanding of the issue. First off, I am referring to 9/11 in particular, not anything relating to the formation of Al Qaeda or the Taliban. Second, Al Qaeda and the Taliban are different groups. Only Al Qaeda committed 9/11, and for the reasons given in Osama’s letter.

Simplified, maybe. Wrong, no. And Al-Qaeda also fought the Soviets.

@Doness-kargath

Third “Communism arriving in Afghanistan caused some muslims to fight because Communism is antireligious” is a very simple way to put it, and leaves out many important details. The population was generally willing to work with the government at first. There were two Afghan Communist leaders who ruled Afghanistan before the Soviet intervention, Nur Muhammad Taraki and Hafizullah Amin. It was a combination of unpopular land reforms, socially progressive policies, and government repression, by both Taraki and Amin, which the Soviets advised against, that lead to rebellion. As someone who leans towards Marxism, I don’t praise the People’s Democratic Party of Afghanistan at all. The U.S. unfortunately interfered and gave aid to Islamist rebels even before the Soviets intervened. Taraki, and I believe Amin as well, though I’m not sure, asked for Soviet assistance, which would have been legitimate honestly, but were rejected. Amin’s murder of Taraki caused the Soviets to mistrust him and eventually invade the country to depose him. This lead to full scale-war.

What you said doesn’t refute what I said. Methinks you’re trying to whitewash Marxism’s sordid history, which is bloodier than any religion’s.

@Doness-kargath

Fourth, the mujahideen did not form the Taliban, but the Taliban formed out of a faction of mujahideen.

The Taliban still used foreign resources to form out of the Mujahideen.

@Doness-kargath

Fifth, the war was simply an excuse to plunder the country as they did in Iraq.

Speaking of oversimplifying…

@Doness-kargath

Sixth, China giving aid to Afghan rebels was not ironic at all considering the Sino-Soviet Split, and the fact that one of the groups they helped was the Maoist Liberation Organization of the People of Afghanistan, which also hated the PDPA (People’s Democratic Party of Afghanistan).

The fact that one antireligious communist regime aided a religious group against another antireligious communist regime sounds quite ironic.

@Doness-kargath

Finally, none of this really has to do with 9/11.

The motivations and origin of the group that did 9/11, plus that it can’t just be blamed on groups you disagree with sounds relevant to me.

[Thelgrim-bloodsail-buccaneers]

lmao oh my god can you two take this silly irl debate away so we don’t have to listen to more sad ‘wah my religion is being oppressed’

[Irenaus-wyrmrest-accord (Irenaus)]

Yeah, I stopped after it became more clearly far off topic and not appropriate.

[Thelgrim-bloodsail-buccaneers]

‘ay bro you think turalyon woulda been down with the great leap forward?’

[Thadeus-caelestrasz]

“Stop standing up for yourself or others” says the wannabe bully to their intended target.

@Thelgrim-bloodsail-buccaneers

‘ay bro you think turalyon woulda been down with the great leap forward?’

Would the charitable religious character approve of purges that killed millions and brutal industrialization by an antireligious atheistic dictatorship?

I…

think…

not.

[Erevien-aegwynn]

Man I am glad the USSR doesn’t exist anymore. Free market economy and a parlamentarian democracy was the victor of the cold war.

[Thelgrim-bloodsail-buccaneers]

@Thadeus-caelestrasz

I…

think…

not.

this is a perfect encapsulation of pretty much every post you’ve ever foisted upon the servers buddy.

[Thadeus-caelestrasz]

Misrepresenting others positions and petty insults encapsulates your server presence perfectly, buddy.

Turalyon is a good guy, no matter what you say or do.

[Thelgrim-bloodsail-buccaneers]

@Thadeus-caelestrasz

Misrepresenting others positions and petty insults encapsulates your server presence perfectly, buddy.

if you or your thought were worthy of more, i would give it to you.

[Thadeus-caelestrasz]

You’re already giving me plenty of time, so you just undermined your own claim.

Now can we get back on topic of Turalyon’s goodness, or you want to engage in more petty posturing and mudslinging?

[Thelgrim-bloodsail-buccaneers]

@Thadeus-caelestrasz

Now can we get back on topic of Turalyon’s goodness

lmfao the dude who brought up communism and whether islam is more demonized in media than christianity wants to get back on topic. this is what i mean. you only ever know how to speak on the same three talking points and your ideas never progress. but yeah sure say something novel or surprising, if you even can

[Thadeus-caelestrasz]

Says the person always trying to turn the WoW forums into r/atheism/rationalwiki. I’m trying to do better here. Give it a go. You’ll be surprised by the results. But you’re going on my ignore list if you can’t discuss things productively.

[Thelgrim-bloodsail-buccaneers]

@Thadeus-caelestrasz

Says the person always trying to turn the WoW forums into r/atheism/rationalwiki.

lmao sound more butthurt. i dislike your silly insistence on dragging a victim complex into every discussion, and* speaking of

@Thadeus-caelestrasz

I’m trying to do better here

you’re failing

[Thadeus-caelestrasz]

So am I.

If there was a real-life figure similar to Turalyon, it’d probably be one of the saints or someone like the last Grand Master of the Knights Templar can’t say Charlemagne because he was too promiscuous and he actually won a crown).

[Doness-kargath (Doness)]

I resubbed to WOW just to reply to this post. I hate this fascist country and community so much.

@Thadeus-caelestrasz

Not sure about some. Now do you mean justified as in WHY they occurred or everything done in them? Because those are different questions.

Do you think any of them were justified as to why they occured?

@Thadeus-caelestrasz

Simplified, maybe. Wrong, no

It is wrong. You tried to frame this as a purely religious conflict, where evil, savage, muslims fought Communism because they couldn’t stand having an “antireligious,” (honestly not true in regards to the Afghan Marxists) government.

@Thadeus-caelestrasz

And Al-Qaeda also fought the Soviets.

No they didn’t. Al Qaeda was formed in 1988, a year before the Soviet withdrawal. Osama participated in anti-Soviet and anti-DRA battles, but the group known as Al Qaeda didn’t.

@Thadeus-caelestrasz

What you said doesn’t refute what I said.

It is. You said the whole conflict was about atheism vs religion.

@Thadeus-caelestrasz

Methinks you’re trying to whitewash Marxism’s sordid history, which is bloodier than any religion’s.

Actually, I said I didn’t praise the Afghan Marxists at all. If anything, you whitewashed them in order to discredit the mujahideen because they belonged to a religion you disagree with.

First off, the idea that communism killed 100 million people comes from a book called “The Black Book of Communism.” That book uses incredibly flawed methodology. They count dead N@zis in WW2 as “victims of communism.” They also count babies which were never even conceived as victims.

Also yes, religion is not the worst thing in the world. Governments which identify as Marxist have killed more people than religion did (I think, but I’m not sure). However, capitalism killed more than either communism or religion. The British Empire killed 100 million people in India, purely through capitalist policies.

https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2022/12/2/how-british-colonial-policy-killed-100-million-indians

@Thadeus-caelestrasz

The Taliban still used foreign resources to form out of the Mujahideen.

Ok, but you tried to frame the Taliban as merely the mujahideen turning into something else, when many mujahideen groups hated the Taliban.

@Thadeus-caelestrasz

Speaking of oversimplifying…

That’s what the war was about and what it did.

@Thadeus-caelestrasz

The fact that one antireligious communist regime aided a religious group against another antireligious communist regime sounds quite ironic.

If you don’t know anything about communism or the Sino-Soviet Split. Also Marx himself said that movements for national liberation should be supported even if they aren’t communist. Whether the Soviet-Afghan War counted, idk. Leaning towards no.

@Thadeus-caelestrasz

The motivations and origin of the group that did 9/11,

The Taliban didn’t do 9/11, once again. Nothing you said has to do with their motivation for 9/11.

@Thadeus-caelestrasz

plus that it can’t just be blamed on groups you disagree with sounds relevant to me.

When did I agree with either the Taliban or Al Qaeda?

[Dreadmoore-wyrmrest-accord (Dreadmoore)]

turalyon looks nothing like his statue.

[Thelgrim-bloodsail-buccaneers]

@Doness-kargath

I resubbed to WOW just to reply to this post. I hate this fascist country and community so much.

are… you okay? you dropped over ten bucks just to continue not changing his or anyone’s minds thru a forum post??

[Doness-kargath (Doness)]

I spent my wow token. Also I know at least one person who agrees with me. The rest probably don’t have the historical knowledge. Everything I said was a fact.

[Thelgrim-bloodsail-buccaneers]

fair! i myself have never been hugely optimistic about the power of facts to meaningfully shape perspective, but the effort is commendable and all

[Thadeus-caelestrasz]

@Doness-kargath

I resubbed to WOW just to reply to this post. I hate this fascist country and community so much.

I really live rent-free in your head, IF that’s true.

@Doness-kargath

Do you think any of them were justified as to why they occured?

Why answer when either we’ll disagree or you’ll assume the worst of me no matter what I say?

@Doness-kargath

It is wrong. You tried to frame this as a purely religious conflict, where evil, savage, muslims fought Communism because they couldn’t stand having an “antireligious,” (honestly not true in regards to the Afghan Marxists) government.

I never said “evil” or “savage”; that’s on you. And the Afghan Marxists had only just arrived, they didn’t have power.

@Doness-kargath

No they didn’t. Al Qaeda was formed in 1988, a year before the Soviet withdrawal. Osama participated in anti-Soviet and anti-DRA battles, but the group known as Al Qaeda didn’t.

Al-Qaeda began as a logistical network to support Muslims fighting against the Soviet Union during the Afghan War.

https://www.britannica.com/topic/al-Qaeda

@Doness-kargath

It is. You said the whole conflict was about atheism vs religion.

Wrong.

@Doness-kargath

Actually, I said I didn’t praise the Afghan Marxists at all. If anything, you whitewashed them in order to discredit the mujahideen because they belonged to a religion you disagree with.

I didn’t whitewash anyone.

@Doness-kargath

First off, the idea that communism killed 100 million people comes from a book called “The Black Book of Communism.” That book uses incredibly flawed methodology. They count dead N@zis in WW2 as “victims of communism.” They also count babies which were never even conceived as victims.

If you want to talk methodology… there are also unaccounted for victims who were unpersoned during communist regime’s like Stalin’s and never seen again.

@Doness-kargath

Also yes, religion is not the worst thing in the world. Governments which identify as Marxist have killed more people than religion did (I think, but I’m not sure). However, capitalism killed more than either communism or religion. The British Empire killed 100 million people in India, purely through capitalist policies.

Maybe the nicest thing you’ve said about religion. And while capitalism has its flaws and has led to deaths, I think you’re exaggerating and projecting with that number. Aljazeera’s not foolproof either, especially not their OPINION page.

Also remember that without capitalism, WoW wouldn’t exist. The internet you’re using to play WoW and post this; we have it because of its potential for capitalism (the US military invented the internet in 1969, and that’s why they let the public have it). The computer you used to type that? Same.

@Doness-kargath

Ok, but you tried to frame the Taliban as merely the mujahideen turning into something else, when many mujahideen groups hated the Taliban.

That doesn’t refute what I said. Never said they always got along.

@Doness-kargath

That’s what the war was about and what it did.

@Doness-kargath

If you don’t know anything about communism or the Sino-Soviet Split. Also Marx himself said that movements for national liberation should be supported even if they aren’t communist. Whether the Soviet-Afghan War counted, idk. Leaning towards no.

Marx also had no idea how to bring about his communist utopia and was a raging hypocrite

While writing about abolishing inheritance, Marx was collecting inheritance from his family and his aristocrat wife Jenny Marx/Westphalen’s family. He was vocally pro-slavery and even had an indentured servant who he never paid a penny. He would later end up getting this indentured servant pregnant and tried blaming it on his good friend, Engels. And Karl was also a major antisemite to boot.

@Doness-kargath

The Taliban didn’t do 9/11, once again. Nothing you said has to do with their motivation for 9/11.

What I said also applies to Al-Qaeda in relation to 9/11.

@Doness-kargath

When did I agree with either the Taliban or Al Qaeda?

Never said you were, you missed my point (as usual).

@Doness-kargath

I spent my wow token. Also I know at least one person who agrees with me. The rest probably don’t have the historical knowledge. Everything I said was a fact.

Cherry-picked historical facts. You lied by omission.