https://twitter.com/MickyNeilson/status/1057407603506995200Micky Neilson, former Publishing Lead, Lead Writer and Lead Story Developer for World of Warcraft.
@Dreadful Sanity
Is there any information of how old Lor'themar Theron is. Just a vague idea would suffice for now. #Warcraft
@Kayeri
@unlimitedBLACK , any ideas on this? I can't think of anything that ever alluded to Lor'themar's age.
@unlimitedBLACK
I'll need to double check, but my understanding is that he dates back to the Troll Wars. Will check tonight.
@unlimitedBLACK
My source for that is @MickyNeilson 's "Blood of the Highborne" novella.
@Mordenay
Do you know what page or chapter is it? Thx
@MickyNeilson
Chapter one was Troll Wars, if memory serves.
@Mordenay
This actually brings a question if trolls are actually that old? Could you clarify if it was intended for Zul'jin to be that old? Thx!
@MickyNeilson
At the time of the writing, it was meant for Zul’jin to be that old as far as I remember.
So there you have it. Lor'themar, as well as Liadrin who was also present in the chapter, are at least 2,800 years old (the time of the Troll Wars), placing them around 1,000 years younger than Alleria, who also fought in the Troll Wars, though this is already average and a consistent lifespan for blood elves.
The big kicker, though, is Zul'jin's age. He breaks the record for oldest known troll (previously held by Rastakhan) by around 2,600 years. This seems dubious, considering the drastic shift, and we at Wowpedia are trying to get further confirmation from Sean Copeland or Matt Burns.
Until we get further confirmation, it's been noted on the life spans page under Speculation in the mean time:
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Life_spans#SpeculationWhat are your thoughts on this?
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blizzard doesn't even know lifespans for anything that's not Humans
in WoD they made it seem like Draenei had limited lifespans, but then there's Draenei from Argus like Jessara or Hakmud that aren't even old by Draenei standards
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Zul'jin is a title, not a name. It is two suffixes put together that quite literally mean "Great Leader" in Zandali.
There were likely numerous Zul'jins.
The only troll to live beyond a century was Rastakhan, who lived to be two centuries old. This is obviously significant because it is brought up [i]very frequently.[/I]
So, no. Zul'jin isn't a thousand years old. At least not the Zul'jin we killed back in TBC.
I made this for this question alone.
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/285660241230823424/507017553189666826/insistancerock.jpg
I have no idea what to think, I honestly don't like the idea of long living trolls as it doesn't really match how they've been portrayed, makes Rastakhan's whole special case of loa granted longevity seem moot and less unique.
I understand that what's stated by a blizzard employee (especially the author of the book in question even if he's a former employee) is basically word of god in the case of wow's story.
I hope Neilson decides to elaborate what he means further, or else this will cause a huge amount of arguing among the troll RP community.
Zul'jin is a title, not a name. It is two suffixes put together that quite literally mean "Great Leader" in Zandali.
There were likely numerous Zul'jins.
The only troll to live beyond a century was Rastakhan, who lived to be two centuries old. This is obviously significant because it is brought up very frequently.
So, no. Zul'jin isn't a thousand years old. At least not the Zul'jin we killed back in TBC.
Your translation comes from the RPG, which is non-canon. Only
Zul' is official Zandali, and it means
Voodoo master, not
Great.
There is also no evidence of a different Zul'jin ever existing in the lore.
The question was in regards to the Zul'jin we killed in TBC, since he's the same Zul'jin referenced in Blood of the Highborne, whose chapters and contents were specifically being talked about during this discussion.
It's not a different Zul'jin.
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Zandali#Zandali_primer_.28official_translations.29https://wow.gamepedia.com/Zul'jin#Blood_of_the_Highborne
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10/30/2018 08:10 PMPosted by
Dakama
Zul'jin is a title, not a name. It is two suffixes put together that quite literally mean "Great Leader" in Zandali.
There were likely numerous Zul'jins.
The only troll to live beyond a century was Rastakhan, who lived to be two centuries old. This is obviously significant because it is brought up [i]very frequently.[/I]
So, no. Zul'jin isn't a thousand years old. At least not the Zul'jin we killed back in TBC.
Your translation comes from the RPG, which is non-canon.
There is also no evidence of a different Zul'jin ever existing in the lore.
The question was in regards to the Zul'jin we killed in TBC, since he's the same Zul'jin reference in Blood of the Highborne, whose chapters and contents were specifically being talked about during this discussion.
It's not a different Zul'jin.
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Zul'jin#Blood_of_the_Highborne
There have been several things from the RPG that've been made back into canon as of late, specifically to do with trolls. Shadow hunter loa (Dark Six or w/e) were recently confirmed to still be a thing, as we see with Ty'jin
So
Nah
Further, there's plenty of evidence to suggest there were multiple Zul'jins based upon simple observation and deduction
Zul'jin is a joining of two words=Zul, Voodoo Master/Great, and jin, the suffix given to a troll whenever they have achieved greatness or leadership of a tribe.
Trolls have always been stated to have short lifespans. The exception to this is King Rastakhan, whose longevity was a gift from the loa and was treated as something of significant note by many people.
Including Bwonsamdi.
Bwonsamdi, the Loa of Death.If he has such an issue with Rastakhan's longevity, why wouldn't he be a little miffed about a troll with several times that lifespan?
Sorry, I just see more evidence in using my brain ridges and making connections with lore we've seen than an author making commentary on a work he did several years ago, that is now riddled with lore inconsistencies due to retcons.
10/30/2018 08:23 PMPosted by
Dakama
There have been several things from the RPG that've been made back into canon as of late, specifically to do with trolls. Shadow hunter loa (Dark Six or w/e) were recently confirmed to still be a thing, as we see with Ty'jin
So
Nah
So
Yeah
RPG is not canon, and you have no authority to determine canonicity. RPG sources are not canon, but if a new, canon source corroborates it, that new source can be used. A new, canon source does not exist that canonizes your prior statements.
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Warcraft:_The_Roleplaying_Game#Canon_status
10/30/2018 08:23 PMPosted by
Dakama
the suffix given to a troll whenever they have achieved greatness or leadership of a tribe.
This is not supported by the lore. Please provide a source if it is.
10/30/2018 08:23 PMPosted by
Dakama
Trolls have always been stated to have short lifespans.
This is also incorrect. We've never had a single canonical source on troll lifespans, excluding the non-canon RPG, until Rastakhan.
10/30/2018 08:23 PMPosted by
Dakama
Sorry, I just see more evidence in using my brain ridges and making connections with lore we've seen than an author making commentary on a work he did several years ago, that is now riddled with lore inconsistencies due to retcons.
That author had lore authority when writing that work; we players do not.
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10/30/2018 08:23 PMPosted by
Dakama
There have been several things from the RPG that've been made back into canon as of late, specifically to do with trolls. Shadow hunter loa (Dark Six or w/e) were recently confirmed to still be a thing, as we see with Ty'jin
So
Nah
So
Yeah
RPG is not canon, and you have no authority to determine canonicity.
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Warcraft:_The_Roleplaying_Game#Canon_status
10/30/2018 08:23 PMPosted by
Dakama
the suffix given to a troll whenever they have achieved greatness or leadership of a tribe.
This is not supported by the lore. Please provide a source if it is.
10/30/2018 08:23 PMPosted by
Dakama
Trolls have always been stated to have short lifespans.
This is also incorrect. We've never had a single canonical source on troll lifespans, excluding the non-canon RPG, until Rastakhan.
10/30/2018 08:23 PMPosted by
Dakama
Sorry, I just see more evidence in using my brain ridges and making connections with lore we've seen than an author making commentary on a work he did several years ago, that is now riddled with lore inconsistencies due to retcons.
That author had lore authority when writing that work; we players do not.
"Blessing of Lukou" "Blessing of Dambala"
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Shadow_hunter#Loa_blessings
https://www.wowhead.com/bfa-champion=1072.2/magister-umbric-shadow-hunter-tyjin
Idk, seems canon to me.
The evidence of Jin being related to leadership or greatness is that we only see trolls who have achieved some accomplishment or standing of great importance of glory, or the leader of a tribe or warband, using it. Once again, simple connections.
The lifespan thing you've got me on, as I've no source readily available, but it's general community consensus they have short lives. I'm more tempted to side with a hundred voices over yours.
10/30/2018 08:33 PMPosted by
Dakama
"Blessing of Lukou" "Blessing of Dambala"
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Shadow_hunter#Loa_blessings
https://www.wowhead.com/bfa-champion=1072.2/magister-umbric-shadow-hunter-tyjin
Idk, seems canon to me.
Those are canon, but neither of those support your prior argument. Just because they're from the RPG, doesn't mean everything else from the RPG is suddenly canon:
RPG sources are not canon, but if a new, canon source corroborates it, that new source can be used. A new, canon source does not exist that canonizes your prior statements.
If it were, high elves reach adulthood at 100 and die off at 400, and more high elves live in Stormwind than blood elves live in Silvermoon. Trust me, the RPG being decanonized is a great thing.
10/30/2018 08:33 PMPosted by
Dakama
The evidence of Jin being related to leadership or greatness is that we only see trolls who have achieved some accomplishment or standing of great importance of glory, or the leader of a tribe or warband, using it. Once again, simple connections.
Also incorrect.
Kai'jin - Darkspear war recruiter.
Ty'jin - Darkspear Shadow Hunter.
Yayo'jin - Revantusk reagent vendor.
Malaka'jin - Village in Stonetalon.
Zabra'jin - Village in Zangarmarsh.
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A shadow hunter and a war recruiter both seem like rather important positions to me.
Malaka'jin and Zabra'jin are both named after important people. Zabra'jin is stated to likely be named after Zabra Hexx.
Yayo'jin is a mystic, a position that is considered kind of high in a tribal, spiritual society.
10/30/2018 08:40 PMPosted by
Dakama
A shadow hunter and a war recruiter both seem like rather important positions to me.
Malaka'jin and Zabra'jin are both named after important people. Zabra'jin is stated to likely be named after Zabra Hexx.
Yayo'jin is a mystic, a position that is considered kind of high in a tribal, spiritual society.
You're reaching at this point.
RPG isn't canon, and the Zul'jin from those tweets is the same Zul'jin from BC, since no others are known to exist.
1 Like
10/30/2018 08:40 PMPosted by
Dakama
A shadow hunter and a war recruiter both seem like rather important positions to me.
Malaka'jin and Zabra'jin are both named after important people. Zabra'jin is stated to likely be named after Zabra Hexx.
Yayo'jin is a mystic, a position that is considered kind of high in a tribal, spiritual society.
You're reaching at this point.
RPG isn't canon, and the Zul'jin from those tweets is the same Zul'jin from BC, since no others are known to exist.
"Reaching"
Not really
Again, I'm making basic connections
I'm sorry this concept is odd to you
10/30/2018 08:44 PMPosted by
Dakama
"Reaching"
Not really
Again, I'm making basic connections
I'm sorry this concept is odd to you
You've still not backed your claims up with any relevant sources.
The point of this thread was to discuss the lore implications of this tweet, not debate whether other Zul'jins exist (they don't) or have a lore discussion about RPG material. It was decanonized in 2011, we should be past it at this point. I'm going back OT.
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I backed up my claims with lore, sources and literally pointing to several common occurrences in NPCs we see in-game.
I'm not entirely certain you're an arbiter of what constitutes a relevant source, but given how often you attempt to ram your headcanon down the throats of others, I can see why you'd try to discredit my opposition with such language.
The lore implications of a single tweet made by an author who made a work that is several years old and outdated are somewhat outweighed by the mountains of stuff that have occurred between them, but I digress.
10/30/2018 08:50 PMPosted by
Dakama
I backed up my claims with lore, sources and literally pointing to several common occurrences in NPCs we see in-game.
I'm not entirely certain you're an arbiter of what constitutes a relevant source, but given how often you attempt to ram your headcanon down the throats of others, I can see why you'd try to discredit my opposition with such language.
The lore implications of a single tweet made by an author who made a work that is several years old and outdated are somewhat outweighed by the mountains of stuff that have occurred between them, but I digress.
You gave me an irrelevant NPC and a link to loa blessings. How does that apply to troll life spans?
Please provide one source from "the mountains of stuff" that states trolls cannot reach 2,800 years of age.
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The air of significance and importance given by characters in BFA when discussing King Rastakhan's age, which is only 200 years old.
The reaction to that age by the troll authority of death itself, being one of annoyance and longing for a soul long denied, seems to hint to the fact that a troll getting to 200 is something nigh unheard of.
So I don't think a troll getting to 2,000 is likely.
The air of significance and importance given by characters in BFA when discussion King Rastakhan's age, which is only 200 years old.
The reaction to that age by the troll authority of death itself, being one of annoyance and longing for a soul long denied, seems to hint to the fact that a troll getting to 200 is something nigh unheard of.
So I don't think a troll getting to 2,000 is likely.
Sources, please. Links to quests with these statements, or in-game items, or quotes from those with authority on the lore. I'm not comfortable just taking your word for it.
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Nonserious answer:
Guys I talked to my Uncle that works at Nintendo and he said Zul'Jin actually used Kage Bo No Jutsu to clone himself and live forever when he lost his arm he lost his ability to make the seals that would allow him to use that jutsu.
Serious answer: I don't think this is canon, Bwomsamdi had a real issue with someone (A troll) living over 200 years let alone letting a Troll that was abandoned by other Loa live over that number (Which is why Zul'Jin couldn't regenerate anymore).
It might have been canon at the time when Zul'jin's involvement was written into the Troll Wars, but now I don't think so.
Yeah, I'm sorry Cannibal but I really think that Blizzard as a whole likely isn't going with that route, I think Mickey made a mistake and probably didn't realize how far off the Troll Wars were from the third war.