Well, yeah: they should restore the spec to what it used to be. They broke it, they should fix it. Spoonfeeding it an uncapped AoE with a +80% buff is not fixing it. Especially when it’s done via a ranged ability that so poorly fits a melee spec that SV Hunters still routinely ask for it to be removed in favour of the generic and uninteresting Butchery.
Calling me vindictive for wanting to restore the version that had far broader appeal and enjoyment is farcical. You’re the one who’s now gatekeeping out of spite.
They need to alter the spec. The current situation isn’t satisfactory. The spec should be ranged by default with the ability to spec into being melee. As should BM. Specs should build on the base class, not take away from them.
You disagree because when it comes to SV you are extremely selfish and gatekeeping. You want to preserve a much more niche and unpopular model for the spec because of your own benefit.
You can hardcore defend it all you want, but the truth is the truth. They changed survival ranged spec because it was bad and garbage with 0 identity. Traps did little to no damage and healing 20% or 40% wasn’t a big deal after a kill. it was a waste of a spec slot and I’m glad they returned melee hunters - after all they always existed in vanilla. They were the TRUE survival hunters, not this poser ranged spec.
Isn’t that a rather silly argument? That would simply be based on how the new spec was designed. They absolutely could have made Survival Hunter not just a melee Hunter with no benefits, but they didn’t.
Unless you are suggesting all melee are handicapped due to the range requirements and instead advocate for all melee specs to be buffed in compensation?
Also tbf, Outlaw is pretty damn out of place with stealth at the moment. Blizzard’s design from Legion onwards has been a very hit or miss (with way more misses) almost the entire way, they push specs over classes but then still hold onto weird aspects of the “class” that they feel they need to keep.
I would have loved to see Survival being something other Hunter but with a 5yd range, but unfortunately that isn’t the world we live in.
A lot of people liked old Survival Hunter as it was, Black Arrow, Explosive Shot, Wyvern Sting all that lot.
Personally it was the spec I would also play back then as well.
From the outside as a non-hunter person old survival and MM seemed like the exact same spec, having survival be actually unique seems better.
I’m sure there were all sorts of little intricacies and differences between the playstyles but I’m pretty sure most can see there was too much overlap. Then again folks request the Dark Ranger spec which would just be MM again so who knows.
They could’ve just added a new melee spec to hunters while leaving Survival alone. Maybe make Survival into a mixed mid-to-long range and utility spec to contrast with MM’s strictly long range DPS focus.
Same for rogue Combat actually, sure its identity was muddled but that doesn’t really justify clobbering it and replacing it with something else entirely. Make Outlaw its own thing that sits alongside Combat.
You’ve been directly proven wrong on all this in other threads.
Every time you just sneak away and wait until the next one.
SV was a very capable and very popular spec in its ranged days. This is verifiable with representation statistics from the time.
Here is an example:
You can gaslight and lie all you want. Unfortunately for you there are still people who played at the time who can prove you wrong.
So do what you always do: abandon this thread because you’ve been proven wrong again, and come back in the next one and act like nothing happened so you can be proven wrong yet again.
Delusion. SV is a ranged spec in classic WoW. We literally have classic WoW right there to prove it. Play it and see.
SV had access to Lone Wolf.
Every post you make you further expose your lack of knowledge about the Hunter class.
The difference between SV and MM was that SV used a different set of abilities that focused on rot damage over time while MM focused on hardcasted burst. This is the exact distinction between Affliction and Destruction but I don’t see you posting uninformed rubbish thread after thread about how they should make Affliction melee.
Rated PvP itself is niche content especially compared to raiding… which is itself technically niche.
The broad trend is that people tend to avoid playing SV unless they have to.
In any case if PvP is your argument then I can just point out that SV’s highest PvP representation was actually achieved in WoD when it was a ranged spec. So this isn’t the killer argument you think it is.
We also don’t have a melee mage. There are people who want that sort of thing, but the general understanding is that its far too niche a concept to entertain chasing (and thereby removing an existing ranged spec).
The same applies to Hunters.
…we lost an existing spec to get it? This is quite obvious.
Yes they made the incorrect choice. They can always go back on it. After all they went back on SV being ranged when it was ranged since the literal beginning.
That’s exactly the case. Melee is, by default, worse than being ranged. Being able to attack at 40 yards is better than not being able to. That’s common sense. So they have stopgaps for melee such as utility (e.g. 16 sec interrupt).
The problem is SV exists in a class that’s otherwise ranged, with a ranged weapon (very important detail). You start with a ranged weapon at level 1 and you’re asked to throw it away at level 10 and lose your ability to be a fully capable ranged DPS. The only comparable situation is Druids and Shamans who also mix melee and ranged specs, and even then those classes have much better frameworks for supporting this sort of thing than Hunters. Those classes don’t use ranged weapons, after all.
I would advise you to not embarrass yourself by suppoting such a spectacularly terrible idea as a Rogue spec without Stealth. “Addition by subtraction” will not work out in this case.
Yes they have had many class design misses since and including Legion. That includes melee Survival.
That’s just the problem, isn’t it? “From the outside as a non-Hunter person”. Why should Hunter class design revolve around people with no investment in the class? Arms and Fury look really similar to those with no investment in that class. As do Affliction and Destruction, or Assassination and Subtlety. Should we go around and mutilate specs left and right because people who don’t play those classes don’t know much about their differences? Should we remove Stealth from a Rogue spec?
This is a good effort but again it’s falling into that “Addition by subtraction” trap; making specs unique via added handicap. It’s just an extremely toxic idea. It sucks to have a spec that effectively takes away from the baseline class.
Mixing melee and ranged or “mid-ranged” (i.e. “worse ranged”) in the same class is a minefield in general. It should be left to Shamans and Druids. Those classes have far better frameworks for supporting this sort of thing and even then it’s a herculean effort to keep it balanced and fair. Just look at the state of Feral in each expansion. It’s bonkers that Blizzard looked at that difficult situation and thought it was a good idea to replicate it on yet another class… only this time with 2 other ranged DPS instead of 1.
As for “mid ranged”: I’m always extremely sceptical of this concept. It just comes across as a ranged DPS but worse. It’s tokenistic uniqueness via handicap and that never leads to good class design.
It’s okay to have variety, imo. I play BM and MM more than Surv, but I still like the option to go melee from time to time. And if the M+ has too much ranged dps, you can now fill a melee slot. Win/win!
It’s fun wiping around everywhere and throwing nukes for big aoe damage.
As someone who mained survival for a couple expansions I didn’t just pick hunter for ranged. I like the variety and change of pace with having melee and ranged options.
This game is a huge grind so having to play the least classes is the best option and having both a ranged and melee are always on my list hence why shaman is another main of mine.
Variety is always good. There’s still two powerful very different ranged specs for hunter.
Note that he plays as a RANGED DPS. This is because if you knew anything about Hunter in Classic you would know that each point of Agility gave 2 ranged attack power and just 1 melee attack power and Survival got +15% Agility.
There was melee weaving but this was not specifically a Survival thing… nor was it a particularly widely adopted strategy. Aside from that, Hunter is ranged DPS through and through including Survival.
Here is a Survival Hunter guide from Classic. Note: " Survival also brings more melee options than the other two specs. Deterrence, Counterattack, and Improved Wing Clip all give you more things to do in melee range, which can help you out both for leveling and in PvP. Attacking in melee will still be significantly worse than just using your bow, but you have the option."
Its enhanced melee options were situational, and in fact more centric around giving you options to escape melee. Again this is all obvious to people who know classic Hunter which you clearly don’t.
Deterrence, 
Counterattack, and 