Tried SV hunter.... I just want to know why?

[Magfalena-wyrmrest-accord]

Cause I already had a few hunters and wanted to try something new?

[Bepples-barthilas]

@Grimwell-wyrmrest-accord

Every Hunter used to be a melee Hunter. We had a slot for a melee weapon which we’d automatically switch to when a target came into range. It was a lot better than standing like an idiot shooting an enemy in the face. Some people even played their characters that way. The devs peeled that ability off so they could create an unnecessary spec.

Every iteration of every Hunter spec before Legion used a ranged weapon. Having a melee weapon as well isn’t precedent for a spec lacking a ranged weapon later on.

Having a minimum range on our ranged attacks was actually worse for us from a pragmatic standpoint. Our melee toolkit was (deliberately) a lot less capable. We fared a lot better in melee range once we could use our ranged attacks there. It’s only better from a thematic standpoint i.e. it doesn’t make as much sense from a thematic point of view to be shooting with a bow at point blank range. But that’s just an argument for having things that are still useful for ranged specs (e.g. Wing Clip) that use a melee weapon without having a minimum range restriction on our ranged attacks.

@Zugcity-proudmoore

I appreciate your extensive coverage but BM focuses on pets; MM is the sniper with high burst, what is ranged survival? Dots?

Survival was special munitions and utility.

So instead of sniping it used things like explosive and venomous shots.

That did mean more DoT damage but that’s just an implementation detail. The identity was based around utilitarianism.

@Magfalena-wyrmrest-accord

Cause I already had a few hunters and wanted to try something new?

So you understand that being melee isn’t automatically more engaging/interesting and it’s a matter of preference?

I don’t understand why you don’t understand the issue. The Hunter class was built around ranged combat and had 3 ranged specs for over a decade. So the people playing the class weren’t exactly crazy about melee combat; those who liked melee generally played classes that focused on that. This meant that when they made SV melee it was inherently less appealing to its own class. This is mostly common sense.

[Trikzi-dentarg]

@Grimwell-wyrmrest-accord

Every Hunter used to be a melee Hunter. We had a slot for a melee weapon which we’d automatically switch to when a target came into range. It was a lot better than standing like an idiot shooting an enemy in the face. Some people even played their characters that way. The devs peeled that ability off so they could create an unnecessary spec.

I miss bopping people on the head. But I don’t miss that dead space. Still think the better option instead of Survival mellee was giving all hunters back their close range weapons and no dead space.

[Bepples-barthilas]

If they redid that the minimum range would not be a feasible option. It would make Hunters complete pushovers in every form of PvP and it would also be a major hindrance for PvE. It’s the sort of thing that worked in Classic class design but not in modern WoW with the abundance of utility, gap closing, etc on every class.

Even having a separate mandatory melee weapon would be problematic because it would be quite a bit of extra necessary gear maintenance. Imagine having to spend thousands of extra conquest points or having to compete with all the melee classes for weapons.

The best option would be to have melee slots but only cosmetic; you can put a weapon there for appearance’s sake but it doesn’t give the stats so it’s optional. They would appear on your character if equipped and the class would also come with a baseline Wing Clip which either used the equipped melee weapon or a generic one if none were equipped. This actually isn’t too far fetched; Wing Clip currently exists as a baseline ability Hunters get at level 3 and it uses a generic axe. It just gets replaced by Concussive Shot at level 13 for BM and MM. Really both could co-exist and be useful.

[Árës-zuljin]

Hunter was NEVER melee, we had a FEW melee abilities for when our Target, usually in a pvp environment, got into our dead zone. Those melee abilities were there only to use then for that brief moment until we got back in range. Even SV pvp specs didn’t spec into the melee talents.

[Bepples-barthilas]

You did take Savage Strikes, Improved Wing Clip, and Deterrence for PvP but as you described they were all for situational usage and getting back to range. In fact Savage Strikes was right at the top of the tree so you took it as any Hunter PvP build just in case.

People are mostly uninformed about what Survival was in Classic. It was most certainly a ranged spec just like the rest of the class.

P.S. Before 1.7 it did have a few more melee talents but it was mostly a case of having several weaker talents instead of a single strong talent (i.e. Savage Strikes). It was still meant to be played primarily at range but TBH it was an unfinished spec that no one played because it wasn’t particularly good at anything.

[Árës-zuljin]

Again you TRY and correct me on builds and again your wrong lol. Savage strikes MAYBE but Improved Wing Clip and Deterrence Nope. You do know a lot about hunter, retail and classic, but your ability to make a good build I question.

[Etamalgren-drenden (Etamalgren)]

@Bepples-barthilas

Perhaps the Leech heal crit?

Leech healing can’t crit. If the hit itself crits, the leech will do more healing, sure, but it’s still proportional to the damage the crit dealt.
Ex: 10% leech on a 1k hit and a 2k crit, the hit will leech 100 healing to you, and the crit will leech 200 healing to you.

@Bepples-barthilas

Also, if you’re specced into Aspect of the Beast it improves the effect of those passives by 50%.

That was accounted for in my examples: You get 10% leech baseline from a ferocity pet, or 5% health from a tenacity pet. Aspect of the beast buffs those to 15%/7.5% respectively.

@Bepples-barthilas

Pets getting the Tenacity buff twice sounds unintended but maybe Tenacity pets are given higher baseline HP before the passive is applied.

Hmm… I didn’t think of that. I know they technically do have higher baseline HP since they buff the hunter’s health directly. I’ll do some more testing real quick…
EDIT: My hunter currently has 67,480 HP. With a tenacity pet (without aspect of the beast), he has 70,854 HP, as expected. His secondary pet has 49,598 HP, as expected. His primary pet has 54,682 HP, which is, again, 49,598 * 1.05^2. This leads me to believe that Tenacity pets don’t have a natural HP boost, and are erroneously getting the benefits of the endurance training buff twice. (Technically, they’re getting the benefits of it thrice – once from the hunter themselves having boosted health, and twice from the buggy double application of Endurance Training on the pet.)

[Bepples-barthilas]

I’ll admit I’m not an expert in classic Hunter PvP. I’m just going off what I see in guides and videos. Just about every Survival PvP build I see takes those three talents I mentioned. I especially find it hard to believe that any SV Hunter PvP build wouldn’t take Improved Wing Clip. It was extremely potent against melee. What else are those points better spent on?

Also one thing I’ll correct about my last post: Savage Strikes was in the 2nd SV row in Classic. I remember taking it on the way to Surefooted for hit rating early on but it looks like MM/BM PvP builds didn’t often take it. In BC it was in the top row so it was more commonly taken.

[Magfalena-wyrmrest-accord]

@Bepples-barthilas

I don’t understand why you don’t understand the issue. The Hunter class was built around ranged combat and had 3 ranged specs for over a decade. So the people playing the class weren’t exactly crazy about melee combat; those who liked melee generally played classes that focused on that. This meant that when they made SV melee it was inherently less appealing to its own class. This is mostly common sense.

And I was saying I don’t get why people hate on one spec being melee compared to ranged when it’s still fun to play for folks which is my stance, I find Surv Hunter alot more fun than the other specs, cause like, harpoon, bomb, combo, disengage HAHA HARPOON 2 AHAB TIME BOOGALOO!

[Bepples-barthilas]

For a lot of folks it is no longer fun to play because it’s melee. That’s the point. That’s why people are mad. What’s hard to understand about this?

[Uglúk-area-52]

@Bepples-barthilas

It’s because they’re trying to make it not as jarring as it was before BFA. It’s the same reason why the spec has Kill Command now. They’re trying to make it more familiar to other Hunters and at least partially adhere to the whole point of spec design which is to extend from the base class rather than run off and do something totally different like in Legion.

Remember, in Legion SV not only were there no ranged weapon based attacks at all but the spec didn’t even have basic Hunter things like Disengage and Misdirection. They were basically designing SV as a separate class to Hunter, sharing only the pet (which many of the few melee SV players back then still wanted removed).

It might be okay if they just let them equip a ranged weapon AND a melee weapon, like before the great pruning. Then they could use that weapon instead of the ridiculous toy crossbow.

Bring warrior and rogue ranged weapon slots back too!

[Bepples-barthilas]

It would still depend on melee attacks, namely Raptor Strike and Carve. The spec would require quite a bit of fixing to work as a ranged spec.

“Before the great pruning” we had a minimum range and couldn’t use our ranged weapon up close. So when we lost the melee weapon and were then able to use our ranged attacks up close that actually represented a gain in capability, not a loss as many proponents of melee Hunter like to portray it.

[Árës-zuljin]

@Bepples-barthilas

I’ll admit I’m not an expert in classic Hunter PvP. I’m just going off what I see in guides and videos. Just about every Survival PvP build I see takes those three talents I mentioned. I especially find it hard to believe that any SV Hunter PvP build wouldn’t take Improved Wing Clip. It was extremely potent against melee. What else are those points better spent on?

Also one thing I’ll correct about my last post: Savage Strikes was in the 2nd SV row in Classic. I remember taking it on the way to Surefooted for hit rating early on but it looks like MM/BM PvP builds didn’t often take it. In BC it was in the top row so it was more commonly taken.

I did miss type, I meant Improved Wing Clip Maybe and Savage Strikes Nope, my bad. That is again more to get back into range, Not to do melee damage as Hunter was not melee. As has been discussed you want to stay out of melee as much as possible so wasting 2 points to do extra melee would be pointless so I wouldn’t spec Savage Strikes I would spec Hawk Eye.

[Sinelius-proudmoore]

It was both a gain and a loss. People wanted to play melee hunter, which they lost. And shooting at minimum range(ex stack mechanic under boss canceling your auto attacks ranged) was a positive since you no longer lost dps for something that made no sense.