"Treat the symptom"

Lore Story Forum
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Blizzard has been writing the Horde so poorly for a decade and a half that this is honestly a mindset that is obviously easy to fall into. But it is frankly the wrong mindset to have. It comes from a starting point of believing Blizzard is incapable of anything more creative than what it has published so far. It expects Blizzard to never write the Horde in a way better than what it has. It buries discussion about demanding Blizzard make more interesting content.

I have no investment in the Horde. Blizzard has never given me a reason to have any. When was the last time I have done significant amounts of questing with Horde characters in a Horde established area? Quel’Danas? There was Battlefield: Barrens, but that just amounted to grinding kills of Orc and Goblin mobs for cosmetics rather than questing with the Darkspear.

Wrath? Horde and Alliance were kept separate. Cataclysm? Horde were the enemy at low level and then disappeared at high level - quested with Thrall a bit, but that was in quick questchain making pit stops through Hyjal, Uldum, Vashj’ir, Deepholm, and the Firelands, and then later spend some time with him in Dragonblight, none of these areas being tied to the Horde in any way. Pandaria? Horde were still the enemy. Wod? Horde and Alliance were kept separate. Legion the Horde disappeared. BfA the Horde is the enemy again. Shadowlands and Dragonflight the Horde once again disappears.

So, I guess it was Quel’Danas? Burning Crusade. That’s the last time I had any reason to find the Horde interesting? And even then there will always be the lingering criticism that it was only done so with the Horde’s pretty Elf people and surrounded by their pretty Elf buildings on their pretty Elf island.

It is beyond a fair criticism that in all of the neutral themed expansions that the Horde has not been given significant presence. This is the foundation of the fear of neutral themed expansions for people who desire Horde content. But demanding faction conflict content so that the Horde will show up is plea made in plight to cure the symptom instead of treating the actually disease causing it.

The Horde needs to have more interesting content in all future neutral themed expansions. There needs to be significant amounts of content that does not provoke the feeling of “Ugh, why am I questing with the Horde?” and uplifts the players with a sensation of “Hey, that was fun!”

All players. Not just Alliance players. Not just Elf fans. Everyone. Neutral content that Horde fans are happy with that explores the Horde’s people and what the Horde builds. Content that makes all fans want to know more about the Horde.

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I really want to respond to this, but I’m about to embark on an IRL epic journey. When I return… If I return from the RMV, expect me to type up many, many words to say very, very little.

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I know we are going to get an entire faction of Elven content… but I really wish as a blood elf fan that I didn’t feel like my faction just existed to be fairweather friends and alliance contacts.

I’d really like to see Blood Elves born after joining the Horde actually being happy with and contributing to the Horde’s old theme of being a found family.

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I can already hear the clackity clack of angry blood elf typing.

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Gotta compensate for the puniness :smiley:

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I haven’t posted in so long… But for an Amadis thread on the Horde? Put me in Coach!

I’m in full agreement. Major Horde development is only really a thing when its during faction conflict as it stands. When it comes to Neutral Content, Horde is batting a very low number with Cata Thrall and, depending on the argument, BFA Saurfang. In Saurfangs case, it was simply to shame the Horde, dragging the faction itself through the mud. Cata Thrall felt true Neutral, though I can understand why Alliance didn’t enjoy the experience.

We’ve had chances come and go. Saurfang was a perfect fit for Argus, Vol’jin could have been much more involved in Ardenweld. Baine/Cairne could have been slotted anywhere in Shadowlands for that matter. Heck, Rexxar could have been a fun pick in BFA, not wanting everything to go to pot again. There are other examples that I just don’t feel like rattling my brain to figure out in the moment.

The first and biggest issue of the time is that Blizz REALLY messed up in BFA. Thrall seems to be worming himself into a good spot, but I can’t see the blue half of the player base being thrilled with any of the other Horde crew besides Baine (Or maybe Thally) taking center stage.

The other issue is Horde legacy characters. The vast majority of the WC1-2 Horde cast is gone. Of the WC3 crew, only Thrall, Rokhan, and Rexxar are left. Of those, only Thrall is not an extremely niche pick. Going into a very Earth-heavy xpac, Thrall could fit the bill, but why use him for that when we’ve already established Magni as the Speaker?

Blizz has clearly gotten better at handling neutral characters over the years. Khadgar is a lot of fun. There is potential with characters like Thrall, Aggra, and Thalyssra, but the sad truth is they are likely going to be passed over for Alliance characters such as Jaina, Alleria, and Magni.

Due to the current decimated roster of Horde characters, the lingering stench of BFA, and the near non-existent roster of legacy characters I cannot see a Horde/Horde-Leaning Neutral character for the foreseeable future.

Best we can hope for is short questlines like the Baine-Centaur one.

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I’d argue its not the wrong mindset to have, rather it is one of multiple ways to keep the Horde engaged and interesting.

The modern Horde exists, quite explicitly, as a counter to the Alliance for nearly all of its founding member nations. Even many who have joined subsequently joined because of the Alliance’s actions - Blood Elves, Bildgewater, Nightborne, Vulpera, and Zandalari. The Horde exists as a reaction to Alliance aggression so their identity in relation to an adversarial Alliance needs to remain in there somewhere. Just as jarring it is to see Tyrande all of a sudden work with the Horde champions replant the tree (which should have just replace Teldrassil but thats neither here nor there atm) it would be equally as jarring to see Talanji work with the Alliance champions after killing her father and invading her city after swearing vengeance.

The issue, however, is that since Wrath we have had not had a truly adversarial Alliance for the Horde to react to. They made it to where the Horde started the war in Cataclysm, gave us stupid evil Warchief, wiped a classic location off the map, sieged our own capital, told Orcs are inherently warmongering genociders, lost our Warchief without doing anything, made the factions not matter, gave us super genocide Warchief while wiping another beloved Alliance location off the map among other war crimes, had our leaders do nothing in Shadowlands, and then made the factions not matter again. They never truly followed up with that made the Horde form in the first place. The closest things we had was Varian’s threat, Rodgers and Genn attempted assassination attempt on Sylvanas, and the prelude to BFA where Sylvanas makes a convincing argument that the Horde should prepare for a combative Alliance. Thats it!

That isnt to say we need to try the faction war expansion for the 3rd time as if it will magically fix everything this time, but the Horde needs animosity and threats from the Alliance. It is at the same time not its only identity. Factions, alliances, and pacts should grow and develop over time. The Horde has grown and developed over time into a power equal to the Alliance that should be active participants in protecting Azeroth. Seeing Thalyssra show up in place of Jaina or Khadgar and Hamuul in place of Malfurion can do a lot to show the Horde in the same proactive and heroic position. Watching the Earthen Ring take the lead in an expansion led by Muln, Thrall, Aggra, Rehgar, and Nobundo seeing what a shaman can really do rather than the Kirin’tor could do leaps and bounds for the story.

What else we normally don’t see is the Horde actually acting as a unified coalition, only adding to the need for this threatened attitude towards the Alliance. Hardly anywhere do we see the various nations prop each other up and support one another. We don’t see Horde shaman and druids helping the Blood Knights and priests clearing the Dead Scar, we don’t see orc peons in Lordearon helping rebuild the Undercity, we don’t have the Blood Elves and Forsaken/Nightborne show up as a cohesive unified force the same way Worgen and Night Elves do. All the nations feel independent to the point of isolated which does great for a national feel but near nothing for the faction as a whole.

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Not to detract from your points, and they are excellent points. But the alliance suffers the same issue. They only formed because the horde crossed the dark portal and wanted to take Azeroth for themselves. Than we’re told that without the horde, the alliance will eagerly tear itself apart and fall into civil war as the kingdoms fall back to distrusting and fighting one another.

Don’t really see stormwind rebuilding Westfall, or clearing the undead problem from Duskwood, we got no word in 13 yrs if the experiments going on at Raven Hill to cure the feral worgen have made any progress on that front. Gilneas has been left abandoned for 13 yrs, with Scarlets squatting in the city now, etc.

Blizzard likes their discount, garbage bin Marvel Universe rip off that they been doing for years now and it sucks. Outside Greymane and Ivar, and Sylvanas and Huln horde side, blizz has been terrible at making people like me care about the factions or what they been up to.

(I’ll go away now. I promise. Just wanted to point out the alliance suffers from pretty similar issues)

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I debated adding that to the post but figured it wasn’t going to add much to my argument and make it more wordy than it already is.

But yes, the Alliance suffers from the same so they both need the bit of that antagonism for their own health. The issue is, in my eyes, the Alliance has come together as a faction and stable group far more than the Horde has. Reuniting the 3 Dwarven Clans, reuniting 3 more human kingdoms back into the Alliance (4 temporarily if we count Dalaran for an expac or two) reintegrating the Highborne, unifying Gnome and Mechagnome kingdoms, with the Night Elves having a great relation with Gilneas and a good one with the Draenei (though its been criminally ignored). So they, in my eyes at least, have largely stabilized and formed an identity outside of ‘We gotta stick together or else all of our enemies (internal and external) will get us even if we dont really know or like each other.’

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The Horde has long since passed the need for an adversarial Alliance to be part of its identity. We’ve had way too many times of a Stormwind king and leaders of the Night Elves giving the Horde a second (Siege of Orgrimmar), third (Val’sharah), forth (Siege of Orgrimmar 2.0), fifth (Amirdrassil) chance for the Horde to believe any more that the Alliance would actually be a threat. Even metanarratively this is known not to be the case, as in A Good War Sylvanas’ finally sold Saurfang on the potential for Alliance aggression by saying Genn would turn his back on the Alliance again in order to attack the Horde, only for Elegy to have Genn say the Night Elves have helped him change his ways and then proved that to be true with the Darkshore Warfront, and went even further in being the person to give the Alliance quest to help the Forsaken remove the blight from Lordaeron. At this point what is needed is for fans to grow passed the desire for an aggressive Alliance.

Because the Horde has things to develop and contribute. Everything listed in the latter part of the quoted post. The Horde can do all this, not because of an Alliance threat, but for the betterment of Azeroth by the Horde’s own will. Not just a defense of the Horde’s own territory and interests, but for the sake of everything.

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I feel like there are many layers of issues in addressing this topic.

Firstly, the Horde is too diverse to ever be a monolith, so, “Horde content,” is extremely subjective. When most people say they want more Horde content, they’re typically thinking of it’s core racial identity of Orcs, Trolls, Tauren, and to an extent Goblins. Basically, the Horde that has always been the Horde since the older RTS game, and in which the Tauren fit in nicely. This excludes races like the Blood Elves, Nightborne, Pandaren, Vulpera, etc…

Another issue that crops up when devising, “Horde content,” that is neutral and experienced by both sides, is lingering resentment and poor characterization from faction conflict expansions. Any Alliance character helping the Horde clean house has to ask themselves a very serious question: “Why should I help the people who keep trying to commit genocide against me?” Unfortunately, we’re well past the point where the answer of, “because the next universe ending threat can’t be beat without them,” holds any water, because as has been noted, the Horde’s presence in such narratives is paper thin.

To give an example of how this is problematic, let’s address a topic already brought up in this thread: Midnight.

A lot of, “Horde,” players don’t see this as, “Horde content,” because it’s about the elves, not the Orcs, Trolls, Tauren, and Goblins. Some will even go so far as to say that Midnight is going to be an Alliance themed expansion, because it’s all about the elves. We might see some troll content, but if we’re honest, I don’t give the Amani good odds of showing up as anything other than antagonists.

So, going into Midnight, we’re also going to see a question in need of answering: Why should we help the Blood Elves and the Horde, when they’ve repeatedly attempted to wipe out Alliance races? In this specific case, the question is almost easy to answer: because the Blood Elves hardly feel like Horde, and have never directly committed such atrocities as Theramore or Teldrassil. Any lingering resentment gets swept under the rug when you bring up cosmic powers and the various Alliance races involved.

Again though, assuming Midnight won’t be entirely about the Blood Elves, High Elves, and Void Elves, we are going to need to see WHY Malfurion, Tyrande, and Maeiv are going to give the Blood Elves the time of day. The Blood Elves participated in a recreation of the fall of Quel’Thalas with zero indication of any self-awareness of their actions, let alone any remorse. It was led by Sylvanas Windrunner, their advocate who secured them their place in the Horde to begin with.

So, it’s already incredibly tricky to get this to make sense and feel like a good story, and that with the Horde’s most neutral race of all.

I feel that we need to see more races in the Alliance sympathetic to that core, ‘Horde,’ identity and racial theme, before we can start exploring more stories focused on, ‘Horde content,’ in a neutral capacity. It just feels incredibly difficult.

The Horde has the Blood Elves when it’s time to get along with the Alliance.
The Alliance has no one and nothing to bridge the gap when it’s time to get along with the Horde.

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You mean like:

  • Troll Unification Plot that undoes the gratuitous villain bats and tropeisms? That centers that Darkspear as the unifiers of all the Outer Tribes, making Rokhan head of all Non-Zandalari Trolls and Voljin the “Loa of Tribes” or something?
  • Tauren/Taunka Unification Plot? With meaningful development and centering of their culture? Because we’re 20 years into a franchise and still don’t have the Taurahe name for the Shuhalo Wild Gods?
  • Forsaken worldbuilding that finally lets go of “Playable Scourge” mentality the net majority of Devs constantly want to push? Using Maldraxxus in some fun Penny Dreadful Southern Gothic Addam’s Family style content? That moves their plot forward?
  • Cosmological worldbuilding that CENTERS Horde-aesthetics (read: Non-Western Aesthetics primarily) for COSMIC/PANTHEON TIER beings? (God forbid Aggramar was a giant orc/ogron and that’s why Gronn looked like that, God forbid Shamanism/The Other Side was part of the “governance” of the Shadowlands and Muehzala was on the Pantheon of Death, AN’SHE BEING REAL AND CENTERED AND CENTERING THE TAUREN AT LEAST, etc)
  • Centering Horde Heroes and Horde-side solutions over Alliance Heroes and Alliance solutions? Maybe not having to complain on twitter because the new expansion header image only animated 1 nerubian + Anduin and Alleria and Thrall was immobile?

The devs suck, simple as. It’s insufferable.

Because “neutral content”, from ground level (eg Kirin Tor) to cosmic (eg the Aesthetics and Metaphysics of Cosmology and Pantheons) can only ever be “Standard Western Fantasy content” which is INHERENTLY Alliance-centric thus.

And until Blizzard gets over that nonsense, we are doomed. Until the devs VALUE and WANT to center Non-Western fantasy, we are doomed.

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Because the elves are:

  • Blood Elves aka Thalassian Elves = Horde, and the capital is where the xpac is going to be centered
  • Void Elves = Alliance
  • High Elves aka Dalaran Diaspora Thalassian Elves = Alliance
  • NIght Elves = Alliance
  • Nightborne = Horde

That’s 3 of 5 Elf groups that are going to play a role that are Alliance centric. Which, given what they did with Bel’ameth being “neutral”, chances are Silvermoon will be “neutral too”.

Ergo my double concern

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Because until SL they did not have to, thanks to us players the undead are actually docile:

“A necromancer. And a lich,” the watcher added. “We owe a great debt to the group of heroes who took care of him a while back. The torch was made from lightforge iron. For the last several years, it’s done its job well—dispelling dark enchantments, keeping the undead docile.”

Presumably Anduin was helping Westfall. From what we learned in the human heritage questline, he has dealt with the majority of the defias. Also, there was that noble helping the them.

As a side note, I cant help but now compare Stornwind to Falena from Suikoden 5 where it ultimately becomes a sort of constitutional monarchy.

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I have absolutely no problem with neutral content for both factions.

I have major issues with the idea that faction conflict should go away. Many of the classic roleplaying guilds on Earthen Ring would not have existed without it as a context. Blue vs Red is the soul of this game… it’s what made it distinctive from other MMORGS like EverQuest and Ultima Online, and still does now.

In addition we had grey oriented mob guilds like the Tiger Tong that played both sides of the street and Blizzard is actually adding support for cross faction guilds now.

Just because Blizzard has screwed the pooch in this area… more than once is not a resason to abandone the reason d’airte f or this game. Where would Star Trek be without a conflict race? in TOS it was the Klingons, in DS9, the Cardassians, and the Dominion with Romulans thrown in for occasional flavor.

Conflict is what drives storytelling. And there is no grander coflict than the clash of empires.

I want faction conflict back… I’m willing to wait a couple of years of defrosting cold wars for it. But I want the kind of faction conflict that leaves players of both sides believing they are fighting worthy causes. And there’s no reason that it can’t be done.

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Blizzard is materially unwilling to add and expand upon any Alliance flaws, so “faction conflict” can ONLY ever mean “Horde Villain Bat”.

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Well…I think that times have changed enough in this new age of deconstruction that they should be able to now. They put grizzle on Anduin… and cracked his halo.

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I’m vaguely joking, but the problem as I see it is that Bliz writes faction conflict stories FOR THE HORDE with the Alliance as a sad weird afterthought and Huge Omnicidal Threats for the Alliance with the Horde tagging along as an “also appearing in this film” with absolutely nothing to do.

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Yet we still have Golden undermining that characterization from Roux every chance she gets.

Yet we have a recently fired dev insist to me that all the Tyrande plots weren’t “Night Elf Content” and that “Hero/Leader NPC” content is NOT “Racial Content”

It’s one thing to make Anduin flawed, it’s another to extend that flaw into WoW Humans.

No you are correct

Faction Conflict = Horde Villain Bat ergo “Horde focus”, Alliance “saves them from themselves”

Cosmic Plot = Alliance Thematic Focus cuz Western Fantasy Standards, Horde is irrelevant wholesale

EVERY. DAMN. TIME.

IT’S INSUFFERABLE.

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The horde really needs to carry Midnight on it’s back. This needs to blatantly be a horde effort. Neutrality here is just a major loss for the Horde.

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