Competeing with a different spin on DPS/DMG output just isn’t… I don’t know.
Totemic would be an excellent support/augmentation role with a primary focus on tanking. Totemic can be altered to modifiy existing enhancement abilities to do less damage, more threat, create absorb shields and enhance utility themed talents (mana spring returns more mana, healing spring more health, wind rush attack ranged increase, etc.)
I’m all for shaman picking up a tank role, but using a hero path to change any spec’s role to another is an obvious nonstarter.
If shaman are going to pick up the tank role, it has to be its own standalone 4th spec or nothing.
I would love a tank role but please, the absolute last thing I want is anything even close to Augmentation. The ‘support’ role is poorly thought out and is such an extremely limited design space I don’t want anything to do with it.
I stopped playing evoker over my distaste for Aug.
I don’t agree at all. It is an excellent starter and likely the most viable option for a shaman performing a tank role. Your logic is based in the familiar and old system we are so trained to think in. Times change, to quote Garrosh.
The current system of locked in talent trees is fine, enhancement, restoration, elemental, it distinguishes the classes and their ability to identify within the class itself as something unique brought to the table. We know it from the start of WoW, it is familiar, it is safe and comfortable. Again, times change and with it, you have hero talents, offering an avenue for change this game needs.
Why waste entire specializations that tease us with such potential? Enhancement already thrives in head-to-head combat, why make an entirely new specialization that does the same thing except calls upoin the elements in a purely defensive nature? It is silly and cumbersome to suggest creating an entirely new specialization (Guardian druid anyone?)
A subtle variation on existing abilities here and there. Stormstrike? Call upon the storm to charge the earth, causing static to cling to the earth and raise it, creating a boulder that strikes your enemy with an earthen fist, generating increased threat. Boulderfist anyone? Remember that ability for enhancement? Bring it back, like earthen rage came back for elemental, but with a twist. Change Stromstrike to Boulderfist. Thunderstrike ward? Earthen ward, shield imbue for enhancement, take from SoD, increases health, has an AoE damage shield that causes tremors in the earth for AoE tanking. The systems and abilities exist, it is an easy implementation into already existing roles.
You don’t need to lock anyone in from a low level, adding a fourth spec is just another overwhelming option. Let them level with the base specializations and later on, dabble with hero talents.
brick wall with a primary focus on being a roadway
because enhancement isn’t a tank
So instead of adding a new spec that has dedicated spells and abilities for its role, you want to go the simpler route of… having a talent that completely changes your existing spells and abilities into alternate forms dedicated to your new role.
Having to divorce the functionality of the dps version of the spec from the tank version of the spec in your own head is, after all, much less overwhelming than having a clearly distinct 4th spec.
And of course, none of this will cause any problems whatsoever with trying to balance the spec tree for both versions of all of these altered abilities simultaneously. It’s not at all like this is the exact reason they split Guardian off of Feral druids back in Cataclysm in the first place.
And who needs to be able to learn their spec role while leveling, anyway? Just completely upend the entire thing you’ve been playing for the last 70 levels right before jumping straight into performing the role least forgiven for not knowing what it’s doing in current expansion content! We definitely didn’t see how well dumping an entirely new tank option straight into high level dungeon groups worked out with Death Knights and Demon Hunters.
Not sure what you mean by brick wall and being a roadway exactly but the current iteration of augmentation or support roles can probably do with some improvement, doesn’t mean it cannot be viable or fun.
Enhancement isn’t a tank in the current version, no, but it can have the ability to be one, which is the point I make.
@Lokka Past failures for poor integration is in no way going to interfere with what Hero talents currently provide for variance within a current specialization.
The representation of Totemic for Restoration vs Enhancement does not have to share anything at all, keep totemic for resto as is, change it for enhancement based on my proposed direction.
Yes, instead of adding a fourth spec, I think doing a alteration of already existing enhancement abilities, to be instead the tank variant. It is already done with things like Nature’s Swiftness and Lightning Bolt turning into Tempest. How is this difficult?
Enhancement can use a shield, turn flametongue into Earthen Ward, add whatever imbuements. This is incredibly easy to do.
Plenty of people need time to pick things up. What are you suggesting? Not everyone is cut from the same block.
Hero talents are new. The limit of their potential is unknown. What I suggest can literally be done in a fraction of time compared to a fourth spec.
At that point anything can be anything, but there are design expectations that restrict this. You have 2 hero talents, and one changes it to be a tank spec. Now enhance shamans have to just suck it up and take the one hero spec choice if what they want to do dps and don’t get any theming after that? If they don’t want too then tough s**t?
So the shamans that want to dps just don’t get to be involved in the totem theme whatsoever? Each hero talent has nothing to do with themes and is just another borrowed power system? Totemic (resto) and Totemic (enhance) under your proposal are two completely different trees, requiring completely different toolsets to be used under completely distinct circumstances? and will be required to be balanced between them?
You’re doing a lot of mental shortcuts, and aren’t drawing this ‘idea’ to its full conclusion. You’re proposing more headache for developers, and less choice for players.
Because those are singular actions extremely infrequently changed and when they do its under very specific circumstances. You’re proposing causing a talent tree to operate completely differently in a whole manner of ways under very vague circumstances.
I can’t begin to tell you how often those words proceed me having to spend months upon months implementing the most ridiculous of features to never be used, all because marketing doesn’t understand why its difficult after spelling out in no uncertain details exactly why its a terrible idea.
As a developer (full stack, but not game dev) every idea proposed ‘because its so easy and quick’ prompts me to IMMEDIATELY dismiss it out of hand.
On top of ALL this
The current iteration is about the best that can be done to facilitate was is believed to be ‘support’ gameplay. You can only get so much out of a design that’s focused on being a ‘force multiplier’ without breaking mechanics outside of the class. We’ve already seen first hand (dragonflight season 2-4) specs get reworked and nerfed (warlock in particular!) just to fix and justify Aug’s existence. Its a game design that requires the entire game around it to be adjusted for its own existence. Hypothetically it could work, but it requires literally everything to be adjusted around the assumption of its existence. I’m talking less mechanics, less interactions, less functionality for everything that isn’t Aug or anything like Aug just because 'support classes can exist.
To say nothing of utility! One of the features I thoroughly enjoy about shaman is the breadth of utility I have available no matter the spec. So I can go enhance or elemental to dps for sake of caster vs melee vibes, and I can have about the same utility no matter what.
This is NOT THE CASE for Evoker. Dev and Pres have demonstrably LESS utility then Aug, and CAN’T have equivalent utility, cause then having Ebon Might would be the literal only difference between Aug and Dev. Aug MUST be selfish with how much utility it has access too, in order to justify its existence. This problem will only exacerbate itself if more ‘supports’ get added, because the supports will require extra utility in order to justify their existence. The easiest way to do this? Pruning utility from classes and specs and only having it within the given support spec. All to bring about a supposed game design that people want, that only exists in other games like League of Legends because the design space and hotkeys available are so extremely limited that it requires a distinction between healers and utility healers!
I don’t want even a whiff of ‘support’ styles. Aug should have been a tank spec from the start, nothing should ever be like it is ever again, that is not a healthy direction for the game. And shaman should get a tank spec but only as a fourth spec.
because it makes about as much sense as what you suggested
Once again because enh is not a tank
Let me explain this simply.
Not even someone who is purposely trying to defend against the idea from working can get around.
Hero talents are not limited to 2 trees. More than 2 can exist. Add a third tree, make it do damage to compete with Stormbringer.
Totemic is totem based, totems have always been a means of support and enhancing the character(s). Theme fits with my proposal of tank and support.
Tell me again how using hero talents to modify already existing abilities is not easier than creating a fourth spec tree, that then has to interact with the already existing hero talents now?
Yeah, a lot more work. My idea is a solution that is in fact easier.
Please refrain from mental gymnastics to break down your logic because you are missing the simplicity of what I suggest. There is no thorough break down, no, the details are not as daunting as you suggest however.
because relying on 10 points to carry an entirely new role isn’t possible
It still makes absolutely no sense and I hope (and pretty much already know) it never happens.
Ok! Hero talents are primarily intended as a thematic extension of a concept that was vaguely referenced in the standard tree, but given a higher definition. Adding a third hero tree that functionally changes the underlying tree now requires all three trees to be balanced against the spec tree, which needs to operate completely differently under one tree versus the other two. Different modifiers, different abilities, different reactions. All the while being kept functional for all three in every scenario.
No they’re a means of utility. You can’t drop the word ‘support’ in there and pretend like it justifies your argument. They’re a means of bringing utility to the group, utility that doesn’t mean ‘buffing’ anybody since classic. And just because it worked then doesn’t mean it’ll work now, the games are functionally completely different.
Because a fourth spec doesn’t need to respect the balancing and functionality of an underlying entirely other spec tree, its independent and changes to itself affects no other specs functionality. You’re trying to save a month of development time, and setting up a years worth of headache in the process.
It super isn’t, please take your own advice before foisting it on others.
Your logic is in a prison. Either have it serve the time or find a way to break it out in order to understand the possibilities.
Look at how easy it was to allow shamans to tank in Season of Discovery. The classic version of the game.
You are telling me, with retail version of the game, 10 points of talents, cannot be modified to alter existing enhancement abilities for tanking? Really? I mean, sell this to me, convince me of this logic.
passive talents and merely holding a shield is not at all comparable to a full fledged tank spec in the retail game
Correct
I’m not the one who needs to sell, you need others to buy. And right now you’re still making no sense.
Make an entirely new spec and leave enhancement alone.
Hero talents are not limited in design to their time debut, their newborn identity does not define them, they will mature and go through growing pains like most everything (like a lot of systems and designs in this game have).
This could be the groundwork to reimagining class design. Your vision is narrowed and within the confines of “what is” rather than “what can be”.
Utility means what exactly? Support? What are you doing here? Are you saying utility doesn’t mean support? Totems? Why do you use a totem? I think you will see what you did there. Totem of Wrath, Wind Rush Totem, Elemental Resistance Totem (buffs healing stream), shall I go on? Not buffing anyone since classic? Your logic betrays you, take a minute to understand where I am coming from rather than defending your position for the sake of it. Please.
I cannot spec into Farseer as enhancement. It doesn’t exist. You don’t have to balance and make interactions with EVERY spec for EVERY hero tree. Also, hero trees can have entirely DIFFERENT abilties for each specialization.
Mental gymnastics = The words you type in your replies which are stubbornly defending your position.
I am not foisting anything on anyone, I am observing an interaction happening and calling it what it is. Tell me, is anything I said viable or a good idea?
Hero talents are a tremendous opportunity for innovative design and interaction within a class specialization, reducing ability bloat and buttons while expanding on the iconic nature of the lore within some of the abilities. Think of all the old systems that have come and gone, but had a nugget of functionality and quality to them. Imagine bringing back the good parts of the things that were purged. Hero talents can be that groundwork.
no
/10char
I think it can be, not that hard. Thunderstrike ward exists now, Earth Ward or something for the tank role, why not? Add some defensive passives and interactions with astral shift or something, easy. I like it.
What? Why not? Sure it can.
Enhancement doesn’t have to suffer the tuning of a tank-based hero tree. Tanking will be based on the fundamentals of Enhancement, as far as tuning any Enhancement abilities to better serve tanking, there will have to be inevitable tweaking, but I doubt it will break the working model that we have grown to appreciate.
This idea has potential.
And your vision is clouded by what could be, while clouding yourself to what can be. You’re effectively arguing enhance get reworked as a second class tree, and the hero talent selection is the real spec choice.
Totems that haven’t existed for almost twenty years in the design space don’t mean anything for modern retail. And really? The movement speed totem? Lol.
Who argued for that? My argument is three hero trees on one spec, where one hero tree completely changes the role of the spec and its expectations for operation, is not a good idea.
Not a hint of irony here, huh?
I’m sorry, you’re far too down the rabbit hole of blind idealism that I can’t take most of this seriously. Theres certainly a lot of thing hero trees could potentially do. But like I said, you’re too focused on what could be done it seems you haven’t spent a moment considering what can be done.
Sure bud you go theorycraft those 10 points and get back to us with something grounded in reality
In a 4th, different spec - and as a tank alone, not some support/tank hybrid.
Why do yall think feral and guardian were separated?
Did you read this before posting it? could be / can be ?
I could go to the store, I can go to the store.
May I have that glass of water, can I have that glass of water?
Is that what you are going for? Yes, we can do things we also could do things. Ideas exist so that we may act on them and have a possible outcome. Sorry if this comes off as mental gymnastics to you, but I am after all, responding to your… response?
What? Yeah what I mentioned is buffs and support still exist, to point to your original incorrect statement, that such things didn’t exist anymore.
See to the context of responses on this post.
You may want to read things again, not sure where I am performing wild maneuvers to get a simple point across.
That is your opinion. I do not agree with it. Potential exists, execution of these possibilties is not farfetched or outside the realm of integration, neither is it anywhere close to some of the jarring changes the game has gone through over the years (some for the better, some worse).