I've had two tanks and healers leave M+s after one to two wipes in the last two days. This is getting ridiculous.
I know this is a long debated topic but M+s seem to be getting more and more cancerous in PuGs. People have no patience, even if the time limit is still feasible. I've noticed that people are extremely selfish, self-centered, and uncaring about how their actions affect others in M+s.
There needs to be an accountability system, or at the very least, the ignore function applying in a more general sense, so that people you ignore cannot be grouped with you in the future.
5 Likes
Grievous this week is really annoying to deal with and takes a lot out of a healer. So how about help your healer out and eat between pulls, make sure people use healthstones regularly and self heals and don't charge into the next pull with stacks of grievous still ticking.
I haven't left a dungeon this week but the kings rest 8 I healed was no picnic. Had couple melee who would each take a tick or two from sanguine each time it popped up and had to be healed back up and a tank who had a habit of charging into the next pull with 5 stacks and 50% health. We finished but it was very painful.
I get it, it is no fun having your key being downgraded but you do need to think of it from other people's perspective as well. No one wants to stick around to a wipefest lasting for over an hour when they could be doing something more productive. If it is clear the team doesn't know mechanics of the dungeon you cannot force people to stick it through.
I haven't left a dungeon this week but the kings rest 8 I healed was no picnic. Had couple melee who would each take a tick or two from sanguine each time it popped up and had to be healed back up and a tank who had a habit of charging into the next pull with 5 stacks and 50% health. We finished but it was very painful.
I get it, it is no fun having your key being downgraded but you do need to think of it from other people's perspective as well. No one wants to stick around to a wipefest lasting for over an hour when they could be doing something more productive. If it is clear the team doesn't know mechanics of the dungeon you cannot force people to stick it through.
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3/4 tanks and healers that have left were actually on Monday before reset. Since it's only noon, I was also counting Monday. I didn't actually do any M+s yesterday and today I've already had one tank leave.
None of the "helpful tips" that you have listed were the cause for the tank leaving today (Waycrest Manor) - we wiped on trash twice and the tank logged off. People don't know how to do their jobs, so they leave apparently.
And again, none of these 4 instances, was it a "wipefest." As I said, 2 wipes.
None of the "helpful tips" that you have listed were the cause for the tank leaving today (Waycrest Manor) - we wiped on trash twice and the tank logged off. People don't know how to do their jobs, so they leave apparently.
And again, none of these 4 instances, was it a "wipefest." As I said, 2 wipes.
Gotcha.
Honestly I have noticed when doing lower keys there are higher number of people who just do now know mechanics of the dungeons or how affixes work. Which could contribute to people getting frustrated at wipes and leaving.
I personally haven't till someone else leaves unless it is completely hopeless (has happened a total of 1 time) but I can relate. I still don't think an accountability penalty is the answer. Maybe the answer is to create groups that have the correct expectations. I see a few "chill run" groups or just ask everyone to describe how they handle a certain affix to make sure the run will be smoother (bolstering weeks come to mind)
Honestly I have noticed when doing lower keys there are higher number of people who just do now know mechanics of the dungeons or how affixes work. Which could contribute to people getting frustrated at wipes and leaving.
I personally haven't till someone else leaves unless it is completely hopeless (has happened a total of 1 time) but I can relate. I still don't think an accountability penalty is the answer. Maybe the answer is to create groups that have the correct expectations. I see a few "chill run" groups or just ask everyone to describe how they handle a certain affix to make sure the run will be smoother (bolstering weeks come to mind)
Two wipes on trash is a wipefest. If i see idiots failing basic !@#$ early on, you can bet im not gonna let um waste more of my time than they already have. Im here to 2 star 10s, not flail slowly towards a single 10 completion for the week.
You need to make sure everyone in the group has similar expectation to you. If you want to just finish, say so before the run starts so that ppl who want to push will leave before it even starts, and you can be with likeminded people who just want to finish the key and will stick around to do so.
You need to make sure everyone in the group has similar expectation to you. If you want to just finish, say so before the run starts so that ppl who want to push will leave before it even starts, and you can be with likeminded people who just want to finish the key and will stick around to do so.
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10/17/2018 09:45 AMPosted by HĂ«rbalistTwo wipes on trash is a wipefest.
In the small hallways of Waycrest Manor with Sanguine and Grievous? !@#$ outta here, troll.
10/17/2018 09:45 AMPosted by HĂ«rbalistYou need to make sure everyone in the group has similar expectation to you. If you want to just finish, say so before the run starts so that ppl who want to push will leave before it even starts, and you can be with likeminded people who just want to finish the key and will stick around to do so.
Pretty sure everyone wants to finish, this isn't a foolproof method AT ALL.
10/17/2018 09:39 AMPosted by Mai
I still don't think an accountability penalty is the answer. Maybe the answer is to create groups that have the correct expectations. I see a few "chill run" groups or just ask everyone to describe how they handle a certain affix to make sure the run will be smoother (bolstering weeks come to mind)
So, just like with reports, if we could have an accountability system where the GMs review cases of leaving M+s, how is that not a decent solution?
I think people may conceptually know what these things do but fumble when they're actually in a dungeon. I don't think "expectations" work because there are several groups that say "no baddies," and of course, there are baddies that join.
10/17/2018 09:51 AMPosted by FearSo, just like with reports, if we could have an accountability system where the GMs review cases of leaving M+s, how is that not a decent solution?
That just sounds like a lot of work. This assumes that people who are reporting someone are neutral enough to give a unbiased retelling of events. Otherwise, someone who left due to a boss roadblock and toxicity could instead be reported because they "left for no reason, trolled the group." Then the person who was reported would need to be contacted for their version of the story. Unless Blizzard started recording M+ runs to use as real documentation, it would be difficult to not have a "he said, she said" scenario.
Considering each case would take up quite a bit of time... it just seems like a lot of work in general, to have GMs review each M+ leaver case.
2 Likes
Currently people base other's "worth" through their raider.io score, which is entirely dependent on finishing the run as fast as possible.
I've never left an M+ group, but tbh I can understand why someone would leave right at the start, and I'd prefer someone to leave at the start than when we're going to the last boss. Sometimes you can just see the group is not very good right away.
I mean, one single bad pull is not enough to judge the group, but two you start seeing patterns. How did the tak react to these pulls? Did he just flat out die? Did the healer go nuts or just froze in panic while everyone died? Was the others' DPS at least any good? If the group is bad on all fronts, you know you're not going to get a good time on it, and if it's one of those long dungeons, then maybe it's better to just drop and find something better to do.
I wouldn't personally do it myself, but I can understand why someone would.
I've never left an M+ group, but tbh I can understand why someone would leave right at the start, and I'd prefer someone to leave at the start than when we're going to the last boss. Sometimes you can just see the group is not very good right away.
I mean, one single bad pull is not enough to judge the group, but two you start seeing patterns. How did the tak react to these pulls? Did he just flat out die? Did the healer go nuts or just froze in panic while everyone died? Was the others' DPS at least any good? If the group is bad on all fronts, you know you're not going to get a good time on it, and if it's one of those long dungeons, then maybe it's better to just drop and find something better to do.
I wouldn't personally do it myself, but I can understand why someone would.
10/17/2018 09:51 AMPosted by Fear
I think people may conceptually know what these things do but fumble when they're actually in a dungeon. I don't think "expectations" work because there are several groups that say "no baddies," and of course, there are baddies that join.
No one likes to think of themselves as a baddie, that is a very bad specification to do. You need to get more specific. Do a "completion only" or "making the timer" runs. Or as I said, ask people to describe a mechanic that is important in the dungeon (or an affix) to weed out people who are not patient.
I got into a waycrest 7 on my alt boomy on Monday evening, that run had a long description that basically asked people to tell their favorite breed of dog and not to whisper io or spec or item level because the person running the group cared more about people who pay attention to detail than anything else. Guess what, we finished in time.
Pretty sure everyone wants to finish, this isn't a foolproof method AT ALL.
Not true. I already have 373 ilvl, i run dungeons to get faster completion for higher io rating. I couldnt care less about a finish that isnt in time. If its not going to finish in time, better off moving to the next.
No there needs to be no system because it's optional.
You have a few choices
1. Run with friends/guild group so you know they will stay
2. Take the risk with pugs of someone leaving
You can eliminate the chances of a bad group if you know what to look for and have people with similar gear/score/experience but there will always be that human element.
You have a few choices
1. Run with friends/guild group so you know they will stay
2. Take the risk with pugs of someone leaving
You can eliminate the chances of a bad group if you know what to look for and have people with similar gear/score/experience but there will always be that human element.
2 Likes
I only leave for 4 reasons
1. Dps misses a couple interrupts regardless how far we are in the dungeon
2. Any dps falls below 8k dps in Meters at any time
3. Or I see a dungeon in group finder that has a drop I want
4. I’m bored and decide I don’t want to finish
I have a 364 Blood DK so it’s pretty easy finding groups. Yes I know I’m awful but so is everyone on this game. My 358 dps is always declined from groups so this is just my little way of getting payback haha
I have left 5 dungeons so far not bad I try to get in at least 10 to lower people’s key
1. Dps misses a couple interrupts regardless how far we are in the dungeon
2. Any dps falls below 8k dps in Meters at any time
3. Or I see a dungeon in group finder that has a drop I want
4. I’m bored and decide I don’t want to finish
I have a 364 Blood DK so it’s pretty easy finding groups. Yes I know I’m awful but so is everyone on this game. My 358 dps is always declined from groups so this is just my little way of getting payback haha
I have left 5 dungeons so far not bad I try to get in at least 10 to lower people’s key
2 Likes
I agree it should be penalised. Was doing a +5 underrot yesterday. The tank messed up the first pulls and we pulled basically the entire first room. Alot of deaths and time wasted but they went down. We get through to just before the last boss and the time is running out (may have just made it) and the tank leaves. Guess he did not not think we would make the time and only wanted timed completion. I was so not happy as I hate the place and was only there to get it done for my own raider io. You may think its ok to leave because you do not want to waste your time, but your happy to waste the time of 4 other people.
I think leaving should downgrade your own key. That may make people consider if they really should leave or not. There can be a vote system put in place to dissolve a run without penalty.
I think leaving should downgrade your own key. That may make people consider if they really should leave or not. There can be a vote system put in place to dissolve a run without penalty.
2 Likes
I think leaving should downgrade your own key. That may make people consider if they really should leave or not. There can be a vote system put in place to dissolve a run without penalty.
That would do nothing because you can simply delete ur key, then when you finish ur next key you are given one of that level. For instance i depleted a 10 key to a 9 yesterday, so i simply deleted it, then i finished an 11 and got a new 11 key.
10/17/2018 10:35 AMPosted by LyhraCurrently people base other's "worth" through their raider.io score, which is entirely dependent on finishing the run as fast as possible.
I've never left an M+ group, but tbh I can understand why someone would leave right at the start, and I'd prefer someone to leave at the start than when we're going to the last boss. Sometimes you can just see the group is not very good right away.
I mean, one single bad pull is not enough to judge the group, but two you start seeing patterns. How did the tak react to these pulls? Did he just flat out die? Did the healer go nuts or just froze in panic while everyone died? Was the others' DPS at least any good? If the group is bad on all fronts, you know you're not going to get a good time on it, and if it's one of those long dungeons, then maybe it's better to just drop and find something better to do.
I wouldn't personally do it myself, but I can understand why someone would.
I agree with this post entirely, except that i DO leave after the 2nd or 3rd mistake. Unless im helping friends, or feeling particularly generous. Sometimes i like to help people who don't know how to do something through a dungeon, and am willing to explain things step by step so they will know for the future.
I think part of the problem is that there are a lot of people that consider leaving to be toxic behavior. But for me, and another large group of people, the toxic behavior is queuing up and trying to do something you don't know how to do and wasting other players time in the first place. Lets face it almost no one is going to join a mythic+ group and admit they don't know how to do something in the dungeon and ask for it to be explained because they don't want to look dumb or get kicked from the group. Although i would MASSIVELY prefer explaining something to someone BEFORE when we have unlimited time. There are many people that will just kick you out of hand though if you dont already know everything.
1 Like
10/17/2018 12:42 PMPosted by HĂ«rbalist
But for me, and another large group of people, the toxic behavior is queuing up and trying to do something you don't know how to do and wasting other players time in the first place.
That is a very good point. For me I have always researched things I didn't know, like before my first 10 run I read up on the new affix and how to deal with it, panicked about it more than I should have but also got thanked for knocking the extra adds away from mobs.
Now then there was the bolstering week, I was doing a shrine 5. I ask the dps not to bolster the big add after the first boss (surrounded by many low health targets) and a dps honestly asks what is bolstering after we wipe. You have people who can't even mouse over the dungeon interface to see what the affixes do, let alone do a quick google search to learn more. Or heck ask at the start of the dungeon when someone mentions to be careful with bolstering. I do consider that rude and wasting people's time. (for the record, I wasn't even the first person to leave that run but boy did I want to)
1 Like
greater rifts ( and thats exactly what they are ) were not the answer in Diablo 3 and they aren't the answer here.
Gating these simply on time creates the kind of entitled mindset you have here, where completion of content is pointless if you don't complete it in the arbitrary timeframe.
There will always be the "!@#$ you got mine" douchebag who is paying it forward after guys left during their learning of mechanics, and now they're leaving during yours.
This is what you get when server community dies, and they can just vanish into the cross server queues to be forgotten and take a dump over others playing experience. Where is in the old days they would get a reputation on the server and no ones going to bring the hothead who leaves.
Gating these simply on time creates the kind of entitled mindset you have here, where completion of content is pointless if you don't complete it in the arbitrary timeframe.
There will always be the "!@#$ you got mine" douchebag who is paying it forward after guys left during their learning of mechanics, and now they're leaving during yours.
This is what you get when server community dies, and they can just vanish into the cross server queues to be forgotten and take a dump over others playing experience. Where is in the old days they would get a reputation on the server and no ones going to bring the hothead who leaves.
4 Likes
It’s a bad week to be a healer, and a stressed healer makes for a stressed tank with fortified and sanguine and Grievous. And flame me if you want, but Grievous feels very overtuned.
Dip a toe in Sanguine as melee, and you just procced Grievous, and now your healer is behind. Miss an interrupt, and someone or the whole party gets blasted with grievous.
You probabaly don’t see it as DPS, but this is by FAR the least fun week to play Tank/Healer since M+ launched.
Nobody wants to be put in a position to fail, and I don’t care how pro your healer is, mistakes by DPS this week snowball really fast and ruin the fun.
Dip a toe in Sanguine as melee, and you just procced Grievous, and now your healer is behind. Miss an interrupt, and someone or the whole party gets blasted with grievous.
You probabaly don’t see it as DPS, but this is by FAR the least fun week to play Tank/Healer since M+ launched.
Nobody wants to be put in a position to fail, and I don’t care how pro your healer is, mistakes by DPS this week snowball really fast and ruin the fun.
10/17/2018 01:09 PMPosted by WhiteboltsNobody wants to be put in a position to fail, and I don’t care how pro your healer is, mistakes by DPS this week snowball really fast and ruin the fun.
Exactly. It APPEARS to be a hard week for healing, but truly is a harder week for everyone, because even small mistakes by a dps will put the healer behind, and no matter what at some point he can't keep up. so everyone's play has to be virtually perfect, or you're not finishing on time. IF i see dps standing in !@#$ this week taking unnecessary damage it's quickly tilting, the unavoidable damage is hard enough to get through on some packs.
10/17/2018 01:01 PMPosted by Mulchagreater rifts ( and thats exactly what they are ) were not the answer in Diablo 3 and they aren't the answer here.
Gating these simply on time creates the kind of entitled mindset you have here, where completion of content is pointless if you don't complete it in the arbitrary timeframe.
There will always be the "!@#$ you got mine" douchebag who is paying it forward after guys left during their learning of mechanics, and now they're leaving during yours.
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I would disagree on all counts. The timed completion is not arbitrary and is there for those of us who wish to pursue it. M+ keys are a great answer here and are the only reason i find myself still playing this game, i absolutely love them, as do many others.
No one left during my learning of mechanics, because i learned how to do mechanics by looking them up on the internet before i went in and wasted peoples time. I leave while other people are learning mechanics because they should have %^-*ing learned them on the internet or while they were doing regular mythic.
The few times i did !@#$ up and people left because of it, i only blamed myself. I wouldn't stick around for some bull%^-* either.
1 Like