As a healer, I don’t pug keys because people are really bad at basic mechanics and I have to pick up all of the slack or they die. With enough of these careless deaths, the key is bricked. People complain about keys depleting but I think that’s a good thing.
We don’t agree on how to solve this problem. In fact, I think our solutions are close to the opposite of each other. But I have a lot of respect for your posts, opinions and thoughts.
I do agree with the post quoted above. It is wild when people have the opinion that’s because the players do something that blizzard can do nothing to change player behavior. And like you said same goes for governments.
Well, I think they should resolve the issue themselves, since they’re the problem and a very easy one to fix if people were actually willing play another role besides the edgelord dps… I genuinely hope blizzard does nothing about it and let’s the players resolve their own issues.
That’s perfectly fine, I appreciate discussions like this because it allows me to potentially get new perspectives, sometimes even making me re-evaluate my opinions.
In this case my opinion remains the same, but it has been shifted with different ideas that I’ve had before.
Just to put things into a different perspective:
If players were exploiting something in the game, do you also think that players should fix the problem by not exploiting, or should blizzard make an attempt to fix the exploit?
If you think blizzard should fix the exploit, how come you want a different approach to this player created issue, but not the former player created issue?
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Because an exploit is a problem built into the game, cause by some sort of glitch/code/etc, the tank/healer shortage and overpopulation of DPS… is a player created problem.
Sure, but the usage of it is entirely because of the players, as they can choose to ignore it.
Blizzard obviously haven’t intended for something to be exploited, just as they haven’t intensed for there to be such a vast abundance of DPS in their end-game pillar m+.
I know it isn’t the exact same thing, but they’re fundamentally similar.
In any case, you’re entitled to hold your opinion. I was just trying to open up another perspective on the problem.
One is an exploit, the other is not though and only one is caused by the player.
I don’t see how they’re similar outside of wanting blizzard to resolve both issues, only one is a player caused issue.
I just don’t see a reason blizzard should do anything about it, the players created the issue, let them resolve it… they know what they have to do.
That would be really nice but it hasn’t happened in twenty years so I doubt it will ever happen.
Then people should accept the consequences of their actions
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I’m sure it’s already been mentioned, but I don’t think raising the skill floor of DPS will particularly do much to solve the issue of DPS not doing their jobs.
We’ve already had mechanics that had pretty negative impacts on the group if the DPS failed to do them, Afflicted and Incorporeal. These mechanics could be done by Tanks or Healers, but they were pretty painful if at least one or two didn’t help out. (Also explosive).
For the most part bad players did not pick up the slack because it was often a life and death situation, despite it very easily leading to a wipe, they’d still rely on the skilled players in the group (regardless of the role) to do the mechanic. Another example of this is the arms race between DPS defensives and healers, where healing is often incredibly spiky because the devs design healing around the idea that you use your defensives to mitigate unavoidable damage and the bad players just dont.
I think fundamentally you’re misunderstanding the root cause. Bad players don’t gravitate to DPS roles because they’re “easier”, they gravitate to them because DPS is treated as the default role in the game and you have to go out of your way to learn to tank or heal.
Bad players are fundamentally uninterested in learning, so they play DPS because its the default and they don’t know how to use situational utility because the game never demands that they learn it since not every class has either a purge or a dispel, so the game never really bothers to make it a “default” mechanic that they have to learn.
I think bad DPS will always gravitate upwards, granted at a slower pace compared to good DPS, because WoW PvE is a static challenge and if you get enough gear, you’ll eventually be able to manage to do some 10s or whatever, even if people could do the same content better with 15-20 less ilvl than they had.
Yes they should but it’s also not an excuse to not try to improve the situation either.
The reason why dps do not help out with specific mechanics that healers/tanks can handle is because a healer/tank losing a gcd to handle it is less of a damage loss than a dps handling it. So it is optimal (in some situations not all) for healers/tanks to do the thing.
Obviously this doesn’t apply to all things. And even when it is optimal sometimes the healers/tanks need help. So dps should be ready to cover for them if that’s the case.
The problem is when the general community doesn’t understand the what/why it is being done.
I think it’s a mixture of both to be honest, but there’s definitely more that should be done to not make the DPS role the obvious default role (I understand that it has to be the default role due to some classes not having a tank/heal spec).
That’s precisely what I’m hoping for the game to improve on, at least that it’ll reduce the amount of players that fail upwards within keys.
Yes, and I realize that we can’t fix that, but the way I see it this will at least reduce the amount of people and the pace of which they fail upwards. If overgearing content allows you to pull your weight in it, you’re still pulling your weight in it.
In a coordinated group, absolutely. But bad players aren’t skipping their kicks because they’re tracking their interrupt trackers and trust that the Prot Paladin has it because Rebuke will be up in time for the big AoE.
They’re just not thinking about kicks at all.
TBH I think going for more carrot than stick would be the solution here.
YMMV, but in my experience, Mages tend to be on the ball with purges and Warriors are often very good at managing spellcasters. Why? Because their toolkit directly rewards them for it. A Warrior can do insane damage with spell reflect and Mages can get some pretty gnarly buffs if they spellsteal the right mob.
Obviously those are fairly niche situations, but I think rewarding DPS for good utility play with more damage probably would improve overall play better than simply upping the difficulty.
I think that if you gave people a tangible reward for hitting their utility buttons, like giving resources when you purge/dispel/interrupt, you’d probably be able to train a lot of the “bad but can improve” players into using their utility.
Not possible.
Dont most classes have some benefit tied to interrupting at this point
The problem with the carrot is that no matter how rewarding you make tanks play, people won’t pick them unless they overshadow DPS enough to render DPS useless, as there’s such an increased burden that comes along with playing a tank.
Alternatively, you make tanks unable to die so that they can’t fail either. Which we all know wouldn’t be good for the game.
Sure, but then you need a substantial nerf to DPS that is only countered by using utility properly. Would the community really receive a lets say 30% nerf that happily, just to be able to get back to square one if they use their toolkit optimally?
The carrot must be big enough to chase after all.
Even then you still have the imbalance of tanks/healers getting the stick, but DPS still don’t get the stick.
Removing the need for tanks is always a solution. Why does the game need one role to overtly allow others to even push buttons?
Not a reasonable solution
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To be honest, yeah. That would solve so many problems in a heartbeat, but it’s not reasonable and would never be well received.
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