I would maybe think the misogyny argument would have merit, if their original matriarchal Amazonian culture had managed to actually survive into WoW. However, in WoW, their culture is nearly as egalitarian as any other, and the gender restrictions on all classes removed. Presumably for gameplay purposes, but I don't see why. Other games have no such qualms. TERA comes to mind, as it has a male-only race, a female-only race, and a genderless race, and many of the newer classes can only be played by female characters of certain races.
Besides, their Horde counterpart in eternal victimhood, the Bloodhoof Tauren, has only ever been led by males in the history we know of them.
I honestly think proximity is more to blame than misogyny. They share a continent with the major block of Horde power. So, when the Horde has to flex its muscles, and show how evil it is, the Night Elves are just conveniently there.
I'm just saying that the last time men were in control (save for Queen Azshara sitting pretty up top) the night elves had an empire. Worth considering.10/22/2018 10:04 AMPosted by AkiyassIs your male ego thoroughly stroked now? Was that snark really necessary?
An era of peace maintained by stagnation and zero threats? Wow. Such an accomplishment. Then the green man came and they lost everything in record time.10/22/2018 10:23 AMPosted by Savanovic"You know, when women ran things here in Kalimdor we experienced an era of peace. Then the men woke up, and now we face a new war every other year." - Tyrande
10/22/2018 10:19 AMPosted by JerolanI'm just saying that the last time men were in control (save for Queen Azshara sitting pretty up top) the night elves had an empire. Worth considering.10/22/2018 10:04 AMPosted by AkiyassIs your male ego thoroughly stroked now? Was that snark really necessary?
Men weren't in control though.... Azshara…. If the Naga are any indication of gender roles in Highborne society, men were still passively subservient to women.
"naga society is matriarchal. Naga see women as superior to men. Naga men don't chafe under these conditions; rather, they are happy to serve their beautiful (for naga) mistresses."
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Naga#Society
10/22/2018 10:16 AMPosted by GalenornI honestly think proximity is more to blame than misogyny.
Eh, I'm not so sure. Kalimdor isn't really a block of Horde power, the Neither is the EK for the Alliance. Kalimdor has more Horde races but only 2 of them have a capital. Which is matched by the Alliance in Darnassus and Exodar….
10/22/2018 10:27 AMPosted by JerolanAn era of peace maintained by stagnation and zero threats? Wow. Such an accomplishment. Then the green man came and they lost everything in record time.10/22/2018 10:23 AMPosted by Savanovic"You know, when women ran things here in Kalimdor we experienced an era of peace. Then the men woke up, and now we face a new war every other year." - Tyrande
Do you even know Night elf lore?
10/22/2018 10:27 AMPosted by JerolanAn era of peace maintained by stagnation and zero threats? Wow. Such an accomplishment. Then the green man came and they lost everything in record time.10/22/2018 10:23 AMPosted by Savanovic"You know, when women ran things here in Kalimdor we experienced an era of peace. Then the men woke up, and now we face a new war every other year." - Tyrande
So are the quel'dorei to blame for their downfall because they were led by a male king? I mean, c'mon. Or Stormwind during the first war - did they fall because Llane was a dude? If you want to argue whether or not the writers' treatment of the night elves is partially due to misogyny, by all means, argue with that point, but this "hurr they fell because they were led by wimmin lul" is just trolling.
Men weren't in control though.... Azshara…. If the Naga are any indication of gender roles in Highborne society, men were still passively subservient to women.That's not how things were painted in the books (after whiting out every mention of Rhonin), the War of the Ancients instance, or the examples of post-sundering Highborne society provided by the blood elves and naga (not sure where you're getting the naga men being subservient. That seems a lil' racist imho.) The men were the warriors, lords, knights, and mages who answered only to Azshara. I'm starting to wonder how that whole thing would have gone if they had an emperor instead of an empress now that we're on that whole mess.
10/22/2018 10:32 AMPosted by JerolanMen weren't in control though.... Azshara…. If the Naga are any indication of gender roles in Highborne society, men were still passively subservient to women.That's not how things were painted in the books (after whiting out every mention of Rhonin), the War of the Ancients instance, or the examples of post-sundering Highborne society provided by the blood elves and naga (not sure where you're getting the naga men being subservient. That seems a lil' racist imho.) The men were the warriors, lords, knights, and mages who answered only to Azshara. I'm starting to wonder how that whole thing would have gone if they had an emperor instead of an empress now that we're on that whole mess.
Your misoginy is noted, and does not warrant any attempt at argument. I strongly suggest that everyone ignore him, so that his backward ways be given the attention it deserves: none.
The Quel'dorei and humans were under constant threat by trolls and other things long before the orcs came around. They didn't build their empires in a land literally unknown to half the world and when the threats did come they lasted a hell of a lot longer than any time the Horde has pushed into night elf lands.10/22/2018 10:32 AMPosted by DraegarSo are the quel'dorei to blame for their downfall because they were led by a male king? I mean, c'mon. Or Stormwind during the first war - did they fall because Llane was a dude?
Oh that's right. My bad, I forgot the two wars that occurred during those 10,000 years. During both of which the night elves were lead by the druids (the dragons were there too for one of them I guess.) Didn't they win those?10/22/2018 10:32 AMPosted by ResìleafDo you even know Night elf lore?
10/22/2018 10:32 AMPosted by JerolanThat's not how things were painted in the books
They were written by a misogynist, which was my entire point from the very beginning.
(not sure where you're getting the naga men being subservient.)
"naga society is matriarchal. Naga see women as superior to men. Naga men don't chafe under these conditions; rather, they are happy to serve their beautiful (for naga) mistresses."
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Naga#Society
10/22/2018 10:32 AMPosted by JerolanThe men were the warriors, lords, knights, and mages who answered only to Azshara.
And so were women. In fact, Azshara's Handmaidens were of a higher authority than Lords and Princes... and there was no male-only inheritance that is typical in historical feudalism.
"naga society is matriarchal. Naga see women as superior to men. Naga men don't chafe under these conditions; rather, they are happy to serve their beautiful (for naga) mistresses."An unsourced claim in a wiki? Oof. Damn. You got me there. Dunno how I would beat that.
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Naga#Society
10/22/2018 10:46 AMPosted by Jerolan"naga society is matriarchal. Naga see women as superior to men. Naga men don't chafe under these conditions; rather, they are happy to serve their beautiful (for naga) mistresses."An unsourced claim in a wiki? Oof. Damn. You got me there. Dunno how I would beat that.
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Naga#Society
Considering the fact that this is observable in-game, it doesn't need to be sourced because it's as blatant as Tauren hooves. This will be the last time I will respond to you. Thanks for playing.
Then why link the unsourced wiki claim? Seems awfully... fishy. Hyuk hyuk.10/22/2018 10:51 AMPosted by AkiyassConsidering the fact that this is observable in-game, it doesn't need to be sourced because it's as blatant as Tauren hooves. This will be the last time I will respond to you. Thanks for playing.
10/22/2018 10:16 AMPosted by GalenornSo, when the Horde has to flex its muscles, and show how evil it is, the Night Elves are just conveniently there.
Yes, conveniently the race with all women armies.
Except that's not true. There are several male Sentinels of different kinds in Ashenvale; one troop type, the Ashenvale Skirmisher, seems to be an all-male group. Not to mention male Sentinels in Stormshield, and Xanon from Wolfheart.
Men weren't in control though.... Azshara…. If the Naga are any indication of gender roles in Highborne society, men were still passively subservient to women.
Azshara was at the top, sure. But the Highborne directly under her seems to be male-dominated. In particular the Princes, like Tortheldrin and Farondis. To say nothing of the power and influence of Xavius. The only female I can think of in a comparable position would be Elisande (pre-Naga Vashj was just Azshara's top handmaiden). Even for the more warrior niche, you had Ravencrest and Jarod.
10/22/2018 10:53 AMPosted by GalenornExcept that's not true. There are several male Sentinels of different kinds in Ashenvale; one troop type, the Ashenvale Skirmisher, seems to be an all-male group. Not to mention male Sentinels in Stormshield, and Xanon from Wolfheart.
MAle Sentinels are very new, as it was restricted to females only pre-WoW, which was a decision made for gameplay reasons, not lore reasons. The number of Male sentinels seen in-game is mostly an oversight by Blizzard.
10/22/2018 10:53 AMPosted by GalenornAzshara was at the top, sure. But the Highborne directly under her seems to be male-dominated.
We have no reason to believe this. We have only seen a very, VERY small number of Highborne male leaders, yet Naga seem to be dominantly lead by women.
.10/22/2018 10:53 AMPosted by GalenornAzshara was at the top, sure. But the Highborne directly under her seems to be male-dominated.
We have no reason to believe this. We have only seen a very, VERY small number of Highborne male leaders, yet Naga seem to be dominantly lead by women.
And Satyr seem to be entirely male. And all of the High Elven monarchs we know of are male. Cultures change, especially when you go through something as drastic as changing species. I don't think, even in a perfectly egalitarian society, male Naga would be able to lead, if they were allowed the chance. They're described as more bestial, and less intelligent.
The majority of Highborne we know of with any notable authority were male. Xavius and his underling I always forget the name of. Prince Farondis. Prince Tortheldrin, then Mordent of of the playable Highborne. Dath'remar, and the aforementioned Quel'dorei monarchy. Elisande and now Thalyssra are the only exceptions I can think of.
10/22/2018 11:21 AMPosted by GalenornThey're described as more bestial, and less intelligent.
Where is that said? It seems very out of date. We've seen male Naga commanders in the Naga forces at least since Cata. You could even make a case for some of the male commanders in BC.
I believe we have fallen off topic.
The last thing we need is to give Blizzard an excuse to ignore our concerns with current treatment of Night Elves by arguing over gender roles. None of which matters so long as Blizzard continues to butcher and write us as incompetent tree bunnies that simply serve as target practice, who thus far, the only way to see a victory and ‘fist-pump’ is if we blindly, no questions asked, no issues, are killed and made into Forsaken/Horde loyalist.
Don’t lose sight of the real enemy in this. It’s Blizzard and this atrocity that they call a story.
The last thing we need is to give Blizzard an excuse to ignore our concerns with current treatment of Night Elves by arguing over gender roles. None of which matters so long as Blizzard continues to butcher and write us as incompetent tree bunnies that simply serve as target practice, who thus far, the only way to see a victory and ‘fist-pump’ is if we blindly, no questions asked, no issues, are killed and made into Forsaken/Horde loyalist.
Don’t lose sight of the real enemy in this. It’s Blizzard and this atrocity that they call a story.
10/22/2018 11:26 AMPosted by Éamon10/22/2018 11:21 AMPosted by GalenornThey're described as more bestial, and less intelligent.
Where is that said? It seems very out of date. We've seen male Naga commanders in the Naga forces at least since Cata. You could even make a case for some of the male commanders in BC.
Woops. You're right. That was RPG stuff.
Though I would still say that nine times out of ten, they stick to a formula of females being the intelligence of an operation, and the true authority, while male commanders are more brute force.
10/22/2018 11:21 AMPosted by GalenornAnd Satyr seem to be entirely male.
Same for ogres... are we assuming that female ogres don't exist? Blizzard was too lazy to make a female Satyr model, that doesn't mean they are dominatly male in actuality.
10/22/2018 11:21 AMPosted by GalenornAnd all of the High Elven monarchs
Queen Azshara and a handful of Princes. In an Empire that spanned most of the known world. Yet we had Elidande rule over Suramar, where the female only Sisterhood of Elune was born. This society would branch off into the Kaldorei as we know them now, which has a female leader acting as the head of a female only theocracy, with a female only military.
And the second branch being the Naga, where is also a theocracy with a female as the head, with an female only clergy.
This is not difficult to figure out, espeshally when you consider the Night Elves were explicently said to matriarchal in Warcraft 3.
Getting back on topic, because I do not want this to be a "Are nelves matriarchal or not" argument, because the answer is obvious and its a stupid discussion to even have. This is just another example as to how Blizzard has completely dropped the ball on Kaldorei story telling, and how it has fealt to be the intentional deconstruction of this beloved race.