To Writers: From a nelf fan

Some updates from the PTR:
10/24/2018 05:45 AMPosted by Moonweaver
Thankfully they changed some small things.

the queen title :
https://imgur.com/Puna0ZN

Astarii Starseeker's corpse :
https://imgur.com/pVKwZly

10/24/2018 07:08 PMPosted by Portergauge
A few things got changed/fixed on the PTR with Darkshore stuff.

https://i.gyazo.com/1d2183cce0b54c804779317c989aa488.jpg

https://i.gyazo.com/d593cad8d4059be4d444b91f1954e928.jpg

She now kills all the other forsaken, and leaves him as more of a monument to it.

https://i.gyazo.com/86f9487dcaaa15f214847d98fb042729.png

Nathanos holding his own for a little bit instead of just being incinerated is explained by being empowered by the Val'kyr.

Couldn't get screenshots of it, but Tyrande on the Horde version as a new ability, Dark Side of the Moon, which are void orbs and hurt like a truck, so no more just auto attacking. Throughout this, Tyrande is also repeatedly dodging Nathanos' arrows.

https://ptr.wowhead.com/spell=234668/dark-side-of-the-moon
I mean, it's something... I think -someone- Forsaken sides needs to die. Nathanos, Belmont, or at the very least make a new Forsaken character to replace Belmont to get merced.

Nathanos should also only escape after the two Val'kyr are killed, and acknowledge that he barely made it out alive.
10/25/2018 09:24 AMPosted by Akiyass
I mean, it's something... I think -someone- Forsaken sides needs to die. Nathanos, Belmont, or at the very least make a new Forsaken character to replace Belmont to get merced.

Unfortunately the forsaken seem to be short on Red Shirts at the moment... it might be time to take out a named character.
10/24/2018 09:40 AMPosted by Akiyass
10/24/2018 12:03 AMPosted by Avondriel
There has to be a point where you just say "F it" and drop WoW.. sure the game has been around forever and it HAD a cool world to it but Blizz has decided it doesn't like what WoW is and that's when you just have to walk away.


I have been a fan since 1995, warcraft 1 and 2 was a bonding experience I shared with my dad when I was little. I was a pre-teen when Warcraft 3 released, and the Night Elves servered as a model for me in many ways. WoW has influences a lot of aspects of my personal identity as it was developing in my Teen years.

While I am an adult, and fully capable of leaving, it is difficult. This is the meat of Blizzard's responsibility as creaters. You're playing with peoples childhoods, you're playing with people's role models. This franchise, this story means far more to me than it does to any of the writters, and I am not alone in that regard.


Role model....okay you need to take a large step back and reevaluate your life if your role model is a fictitious character.
10/25/2018 12:33 PMPosted by Lumianes
Role model....okay you need to take a large step back and reevaluate your life if your role model is a fictitious character.


Tons of people have fiction characters as their role models, get over yourself. x.x
Need dislike back seriously, whoever removed it needs a quick thump on the skull.
Well, at least we've seen some improvements, maybe we'll see something better next time.

10/25/2018 12:33 PMPosted by Lumianes
Role model....okay you need to take a large step back and reevaluate your life if your role model is a fictitious character.


...

That's a pretty common thing. No idea why would you shame one for that unless you live under a rock.
10/25/2018 09:24 AMPosted by Akiyass
I mean, it's something... I think -someone- Forsaken sides needs to die. Nathanos, Belmont, or at the very least make a new Forsaken character to replace Belmont to get merced.

Nathanos should also only escape after the two Val'kyr are killed, and acknowledge that he barely made it out alive.


I agree. For him to escape should cost him both Val'kyr since they are empowering him and leave Sylvanas with even less to resurrect her, even though honestly Tyrande should be able to take him out anyway.
The changes to Tyrande's performance in fighting Nathanos on the PTR are, frankly, great. There's no disputing that Nathanos not being able to get a single hit on Tyrande while Nathanos is being empowered by the Val'kyr makes the Night Warrior ritual appear powerful now.

There is good in celebrating positive changes. However, complacency is easy to fall into, and if response from players is "good enough," that's all we will get from Blizzard's efforts as well.

There are at least four remaining problems with the Darkshore Warfront storyline:

  • Sparing Lives:
    • Tyrande Whisperwind says: Teldrassil burned because I chose to spare Saurfang's life.
      Tyrande Whisperwind says: Countless innocents were murdered. Entire families erased in moments.
      Tyrande Whisperwind says: The time for mercy is over.

      Deathstalker Commander Belmont says: Your tree... was just the beginning. This entire shore will fuel our armies.
      Tyrande Whisperwind says: I failed to protect my people, but I will avenge them.
      Tyrande Whisperwind says: Leave him to rot. He does not deserve a clean death.
      Deathstalker Commander Belmont says: You have won... nothing.

    Tyrande leaving Belmont alive after declaring that sparing Saurfang's life was a mistake is the problem. This is still bad, and still makes Tyrande look incompetent.

    A change on the PTR has Tyrande killing all the nameless Forsaken at Belmont's deathcamp instead of just paralyzing them as she does to Belmont. This is not a worthwhile change. It doesn't affect Tyrande's competency, merely her lethality. However, it's not actually a meaningful change of power. How is killing a large number of enemies with a massive magic spell really any more powerful than indefinitely paralyzing them with a massive magic spell? If Belmont still lives regardless, it's not a significant change.

    There was also another change on the PTR to accompany this:
      The Battle for Darkshore (Horde)
      04: Free the Ensnared
      Save Master Apothecary Faranell and Deathstalker Commander Belmont from the Druids of the Branch.

    One could surmise that this change was made for the Forsaken fans who were dismayed at the idea of Belmont dying, as they were complaining that they didn't have many significant Forsaken characters and had fondness for Belmont and thought it detrimental to the Forsaken if Belmont died.

    But Belmont never even shows up in the Horde's introductory quests to the Darkshore Warfront. It has been proposed by other posters, but simply, if Belmont is not going to die, he has no place in this story. Replace him with a generic nameless Forsaken NPC leader unit that Tyrande kills off with the rest of the nameless Forsaken NPCs and leave Belmont out entirely if the Forsaken players don't want him to die.

    That would be ideal, but there's actually an even easier and simpler solution to even that. Remove Tyrande's line about Saurfang. If Tyrande doesn't chastise herself for sparing a life, then her sparing a life immediately after won't read as bafflingly incompetent.

  • Not being able to intervene before Night Elves are risen as undead
    • Tyrande's Ascension Scenario
      Stage 11: The Queen's Pawn
      Intervene before Nathanos raises the fallen as forsaken.

    Why is the Alliance narrative framed again as a goal that will not be met? We already had this in the quest objective of evacuating 982 Darnassian Citizens in 3:00 minute time limit in the mockingly named "A Flicker of Hope" quest. Though Tyrande is shown as more powerful in fighting Nathanos, the stated goal still ends in failure as the Night Elves are risen in undeath. This is especially bad given the one piece of information we have about the Night Warrior before this:
      Necklace with Elune Pendant

      Elune is the primary goddess of the night elves. She is associated with the larger of the two moons, the White Lady. While she is a goddess of peace, she is not a pacifist. One of her aspects is the Night Warrior, who takes the valiant among the dead and sets them riding across the sky as stars.

    I propose the following change: As Tyrande and Malfurion are fighting Nathanos, have Tyrande cast a spell on Night Elf corpses that does what the description reads above as: Have their souls come out and fly off into the sky Team Rocket style and have their corpses despawn, having Tyrande save them from the Forsaken one by one until only Delaryn and Sira's corpses remain. Then when Tyrande goes to channel her saving spell on Delaryn, then have the Val'kyr use mind control spell on Tyrande to stop her and stun her long enough to at least raise Delaryn and Sira, and then have Tyrande kill the Val'kyr. This would make the Alliance side feel far less like failure, and more just not being able to save everyone, which is far more reasonable.

  • Sira Moonwarden
    • Sira Moonwarden says: We placed our faith in you.

    Sira Moonwarden and other Night Elves immediate joining the Horde, their very killers, for as unbelievable of reasoning presented or no reasoning at all is still entirely bad. This is especially bad in the light of Before the Storm and Thomas Zelling in the Horde War-campaign clearly showing that those risen as undead do not 100% of the time immediately change their entire personalities are become negative image versions of their former living selves.

    My above suggestion would actually help towards this. Sira and Delaryn were generals in charge of other Night Elves. It is to be expected that Tyrande would save the soldiers that had been under their command first, as the Night Elf generals probably would have wanted in life. However, in death, if Sira would somehow be witnessing all this, her soul would probably be extremely anxious and desperate for Tyrande to at least save her from being raised as undead. But that Tyrande wouldn't make it in time again to personally save Sira, this would probably be enough to break Sira's mind and leave her as the husk of loathing we see leading as the Horde's general in the Warfront proper. Which might already be the case, but far more nuance would have to be put in how this is present than what we are given in game - on the Alliance side. While the nuance would, I'm sure, be appreciated by Forsaken fans, if it is Horde exclusive it still leaves the Alliance side narrative unpalatable.

    Delaryn joining the Forsaken I actually have no problem with, given her feelings towards Elune and Tyrande standing before her as Elune incarnate, and on top of that Delaryn's story still feeling unfinished and so I reserve judgement on it until I see more of it.

  • Indefinite Stalemate
    • Tyrande Whisperwind says: The time has come to reclaim our home.

    Which leads me to the most important problem. This is a Warfront. Gameplay wise. This is not a win. This is at best a stalemate eternally basking under a monument to Sylvanas' depravity and ego. Blizzard is probably wanting of moving on from the Night Elves' story and moving on to other focuses in BfA after the Darkshore Warfont. But if this is it, after the War of the Thorns, after A Good War and Elegy, after Warbringer: Sylvanas, after "Old Solider", after the Burning of Teldrassil, if the Night Elf story dead-ends with the Darkshore Warfront, that will be completely unacceptable. And to preempt anyone calling for the Night Elves to lose and have take it as a positive so they can go relocate on the Eastern Kingdoms, that is even more unacceptable. If this is the end of the Night Elves' story in BfA, though the changes in the PTR definitely make Tyrande look fittingly powerful, it all would not have been worth it, and I'd rather the Night Elves' story had been left with the ending of Elegy and the "Azeroth at War: Kalimdor on Fire" mission table descriptions than the Darkshore Warfront.
    1 Like
    Great post OP, thank you for bringing it here.

    The post above mine is also excellent, thank you for posting both the updates & some suggestions to make the warfront at least partially palatable.

    OP nailed on the head exactly what's been bothering me since Cata. While Deathwing hit most of Azeroth with some destructive changes, he was particularly destructive toward the Night Elves. Then you have a major Night Elven character go to the Legion at the end of WoD (not to mention, Night Elves patrolling my Garrison in STORMWIND armor, wth???), then Legion which, despite being incredibly awesome in terms of tying up years' worth of loose ends, still didn't really have Night Elven representation except for bitterness - Bitter Maiev still chasing & hating on Illidan, bitterness regarding the rediscovery of Suramar, the rediscovery of Val'Sharah, only to find it's nigh completely corrupted... And now Teldrassil is gone. I started playing as Night Elf because I've always RPed as a Half-Elven Druid and Night Elves were closer to Half-Elven than Tauren. I used to really love WoW and I really wanted to log in & play but now I'm just so-so about it. I wish the devs would quit pooping all over the Night Elves for a change.
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    I want to keep this thread alive, but honestly, it's exhausting to talk about. Amadis hit the nail on the head for necessary changes, but it is super frustrating that we have to fight tooth and nail for this stuff. The Writing team at Blizzard has a sever lack of Night Elf fans I thing, which should never happen imo. The Writing team should have avid fans fighting for the representation of each race in the narrative.
    Completely agree OP, excellent post but honestly, as much as I would love for Nelves to not be the eternal punching bag and get some actual wins for once, I'm past the point of expecting anything good for us.

    Old soldier was the final nail in the coffin for me, what should've been something to show how the nelves were dealing with a catastrophic attack on their race was instead given to the horde (as per usual) to showcase how bad an orc feels about it. Let's not forget that in "A Good War" Saurfang was quite content at the idea of killing them and even went so far as to personally hire rogues to kill every Nelf they came across to try and keep the element of surprise for as long as possible. Where did all that honour that he apparently cares so much about go?

    On the topic of the novellas, I'll admit that the local garrison holding off the entire horde army was pretty cool and much appreciated . Attacking the Nelves in the forest should be like attacking Russia in winter - aka a bloody stupid idea.
    However, that nonsense with Saurfang getting behind them was just idiotic.

    "Oh no! How could they know our one weakness? A complete lack of knowledge of the terrain we've been personally protecting for over 10k years, I wish we remembered to ask the giants to maybe keep an eye out at the very least."

    It has honestly gotten to point where I hear Bliz talk about night elves and my reaction is "great, who's going to die and what are we going to lose this time?"
    We can never do anything right and must always be saved and its almost always by the bloody humans and their stupid "Human potential". Look at the Nelf themed novels;

    Stormrage - Lucan god damn foxblood, I will go no further here.
    War of the Ancients - saved by a human and orc, we also apparently forgot what these races were by the time WC3 rolls around.
    Wolfheart - we were ambushed in the forest at night by orcs...a nocturnal race...ambushed at night by a diurnal race of giant muscled monster men in Ashenvale and had to be saved by a human and his furry humans (at least the worgen makes sense though). I refuse to go any further into that because if you can read that and think that it not utterly moronic then there's really nothing more to be said.

    I grew up playing WC3 and I loved the savage take on the elves, to see them reduced to the pansy hippies in wow sucked but it was never that big of a deal but watching all of the Nelf lore be torn up and given to other races in conjunction with being !@#$ on every expansion has just worn me down to the point where I find it difficult to care about the story.

    Assuming a CM actually reads this, I'm not asking for us to be stupidly OP and never lose anything, we are/were on Kalimdor which is obviously the seat of the horde's power losing things is inevitable. I'm merely asking for the Nelves to be written as competent and not to not be the victims for once.

    The recent revisions of the darkshore quest line are a good start and show that you seem to be listening to the community which is great but the fact that #1 Sylvanas shoe sniffer self insert...I mean Nathanos... could go up against a literal god empowered Tyrande in the first place makes me a little worried regarding where our story is headed.

    My apologies if that comes across as a little ramblely, it has been a very long day.

    Edit - grammar correction
    1 Like
    Great post OP. I always loved the Night Elves for not being that same old same old Tolkien type "Human" Elves. They were awesome competent feral and savage Jungle like Elves with just a hint of monster (with the cool fangs and claws), who could hold their own in battle and defend their own forest without any help from outsiders.

    Sadly it seems that the WC3 Kaldorei days are forever gone never to be seen again, at least with this current dev team.

    I hope that someday soon we will see a return of the feral and savage Night Elves that once were, that Grom Hellscream respected.

    "These women fight with unmatched savagery! I've never seen their equal. They are... perfect warriors."

    "They almost look like elves. But they are far too tall, and far too savage." - Grom Hellscream.

    Kaldorei are descendants of Dark trolls, and should reflected it. They were never meant to be purple Humans.
    1 Like
    For those of you that haven't seen the patch 8.1 cinematic.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLKS0Jq9U_E

    I have to admit I really enjoyed that, it's great to see the savageness back and to see Malfurion finally taking action. While this alone does not alleviate the problems discussed in this thread, I feel I must give credit where it is due.

    Lets hope Bliz keeps this going.
    Good work
    1 Like
    Great post.

    Worst part of all this though is Blizzard won't actually change anything ...
    11/12/2018 11:05 PMPosted by Kiingah
    Great post.

    Worst part of all this though is Blizzard won't actually change anything ...


    Sad but true, as long as it's not about Sylvanas, Afrasiabi doesn't have any interest in writing it.
    I agree wholeheartedly, OP, I've felt that way for a while now, too.

    I'd also like to point out that this thread is well-populated with the measured, reasoned, well-articulated thoughts and feelings of people who've played these characters for a long time and thought about these issues for a long time. This isn't overly-emotional memebabies demanding to have their way. It's longtime players attempting to identify and understand a problem.

    One of the best things about WoW, in my opinion, is that there's room for so many types of characters, fantasies, alignments, etc. It takes a lot of work and revision, but it should be possible to have concurrent storylines that work for Undead players, Night Elf players, Orc players, Worgen players, and so on. There are types of characters in this game that I have little interest in playing, but I enjoy that they exist for others to play.

    This idea that "hey, we're getting negative feedback from people who've played these characters for 14 years (or longer because of WC3), so that means we're doing something right!"...its hard for me to tell whether they actually believe that, or whether its just something that people say to sound smart. There's a very big difference between "I'm angry that Teldrassil was destroyed, lets go renew our subs and kill some horde" and "Is this seriously the story or are you guys just trolling me right now?" I see the same argument made about the Horde internal politics, but without the implications of spite.

    I'm sure it's not easy to make good story out of all this that checks all the boxes and satisfies all of the stakeholders (all the different groups of players), and I'm not saying I can do it better, but I get the sense sometimes that there are aspects of this game that the current writers wish they didn't have to bother with. I can imagine someone sitting there wracking their brain saying "why do I have to write for this dumb Tauren/Nelf/etc? They're boring, what's there to say?" Well I sympathize with that, but they need to get more people in there who can get excited about other types of characters and ideas that obviously resonate with players (again, there's a difference between "resonance" and "noise"). A chef doesn't just cook for himself, and a good one doesn't do it with contempt.
    1 Like
    I Be honest with ya let me be real and tell you my life and time as working on my main

    I remember my earily days Seeing Crossroad gank, I swore I get back at the 2 just out right kill me since they where killing my NPC

    as i grow up both metnaly and getting older I Took my time to read (Shock I know but eh what we do when you get so bored and took time to read the thing)

    I Started to learn and read Sure I may not on some point with Night elf But I can respect them and well I say this: Malfurion Stormrage He kinda like some I would not mind I been working with this guy back in cata age and well So far He seem pretty chill and I grown to like him Over time Working and healing lands with hima nd I took my time to read up night elf stuff

    Sure sure I am a orc (big shock) But I can understand where a line drawn like goblin I am open with Trade and helping them if the case is good then just Pushing one side to another

    but since War of thorn I just felt....wrong I know it lead up to this but this is not Horde i dream and work with while Under thrall horde Now every thing I Fought and bleed for on the Borken shore Died when vol'jin died and now I have to deal with this False horde Leading it self to it own grave by madness

    I willing to do a 2nd rebellion if thing do go out too far.

    I am up getting payback on Greefer not Genocide

    but ah well that just me Rambling....and Given my self to....well Ultimate Despair.
    1 Like
    Yup, I agree - the treatment of Night Elves in particular and the Alliance faction in general is abysmal.

    The powers that be are blatantly biased towards the horde - even in an MMO whose very premise dictates that both factions be 'net equal'.

    Although I've never played a Night Elf, I loved their zones leveling up as a human during Classic and BC - the music & the atmospherics were awesome - its a shame that since Cata, Ashenvale has had the !@#$ty Horde and its accompanying crap orchestra.

    I hate BFA and hate myself for having paid to play it, it's just the worst expac at every level and its beaten WoD in being the worst - i think I'm done with MMO's forever.
    1 Like