I mean, is “no u” an argument? At this point does it even matter? We both know your diatribe about your philosophy of reward structures is entirely meaningless in this discussion. It’s not what Bornakk asked for. It’s nothing more than an opinion that carries no more weight than the opinion of anyone else here. I don’t particularly care about it because I know it’ll never be implemented. The game has moved away from putting Mythic raiders on an untouchable pedestal over the years and that’s a good thing. But by all means, keep sharing how forging has personally impacted you…or…wait…maybe you can actually do that instead of regurgitating your opinion about the loot other people are getting over and over again.
So no it wasn’t to encourage people to repeat content, it was to encourage people to repeat content? Hehe. There are two distinct concepts they talk about there that they wanted to address. There’s no reason to pretend that there was only one reason and it wasn’t what Aewendil said. It was that…and a little bit more.
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It has a dual purpose.
It was to extend the life of a tier. High-end players would get BiS relatively quickly, but more importantly, you’d have “the common player” reach the limit of their rewards (LFR, Normal, Heroic) and they reasonably would have nothing to improve their character’s power. Many players were expected to unsub after a couple months of a tier launch. Once they got their goodies, they stopped playing. Then they’d re-sub once a patch dropped.
From this, Thunderforging was created as a way to artificially extend the life of content. It was only with raids at this time, of course. Players would still reach a true BiS, but that 6ilvl upgrade meant there was something to acquire.
Fast forward to today, we have an unlimited Titanforge cap on most items. It serves as both power creep and an artificial-extension of content life for player power rewards. Players would stay subbed longer if they could always get an upgrade.
And the vast majority of people against Titanforging aren’t actually against Titanforging, they just would prefer to see it capped. +15 is rare enough to feel great, but common enough to be seen multiple times each patch.
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I don’t like it either. Even worse, the same defense Blizzard gives for the system I like even less.
It is only a matter of opinion if the rewards are incongruent.
I don’t think there are too many people that will say “I don’t like to get a warforge/titanforge.”
For me, I have had many occasion where I have Heroic difficulty raid loot that is warforged or titanforged outperforming what I might get as I progress through Mythic level raid bosses. This, for me, takes away from part of the excitement of the loot I can achieve at a higher raid difficulty. I don’t feel that items should surpass the next level of difficulty for their item level potential. At least when it comes to raids.
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“Its fine” to get heroic/mythic raid level gear for making loh go isnt really an opinion. Its lunacy.
I will concede it may not happen every time. But it does happen. And it does devalue that gear slot the next time you kill a boss.
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It actually hardly ever happens. The chance of a WQ item forging 60 ilvl to mythic raid level are around 1 in 2 million.
It’s only possible to use this argument if you don’t care about reality at all.
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And yet it hasn’t happened a single time for you this tier. You have zero titanforges equipped.
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You can have any opinion you like. I am cool with it. Until, anyone can prove it is game breaking it is just a petty squabble either way.
Most arguments against it just boil down to not wanting others to get some gear they don’t “deserve”. I use the word “deserve” very loosely because there is no way to real way in game to define what someone “deserves”.
He has minimum 3 warforged pieces of loot that have sockets or sufficiently high ilvl to outperform mythic level loot. An item doesn’t need to be titan-forged to exceed the power of the next tier of loot, that is to say that a 405 piece of loot with a socket can pretty easily be better than a 415 piece of loot.
This isn’t really brand new, though. There was always the case where an item from a lower difficulty could out-perform and item from a higher difficulty, depends on the stat distribution.
If the person got the same item from mythic, maybe warforged 5 ilevels, but without a socket, it would probaly still be an upgrade over that other warforged pice, as the additional stats make up for the lack of 40 stat points that the socket provides.
But it depends on the stats and itemization, which is nothing new in the slightest.
Another person pretending that base level 410 loot from mythic cache is “warforged”. It’s. The. Base. Ilvl.
So again, you can’t even make your case without lying about what’s going on.
If you want to argue that M+ players don’t deserve ilvl 410 loot, then make that argument. But warforging/titanforging is not why those items are the ilvl that they are.
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That’s what he said he didn’t like. And you’re right, he doesn’t have anything equipped that fits that regardless of the goalpost shifting/backpedaling Crusty is doing. It’s laughable. The solution that everyone keeps parroting doesn’t even fix these things. They claim they’re upset about the ilvl forging above the ilvl of the tier above, but yet when you say, “but you don’t have any that are like that?” then they fall all over themselves arguing about sockets. It’s ridiculous.
You’re absolutely right. He’s complaining about something that he doesn’t have a single example of on his character.
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Yea it’s not new, but the current iteration is counter to the idea of trying to make ilvl the basis for whether an item is an upgrade.
Let’s have a look at it because I think it’s interesting to see what some of the break points are. IIRC as an arbitrary example, the stat’s gained per 5 ilvl for the larger pieces of gear are something like ~ +11/+3/+2 for MS/Secondary stat/Secondary stat (this is somewhat dependent on the item and flexes a bit).
I’ll use my stat weights for a comparison of where the breaking point is.
Critical Strike = 3.03
Mastery = 2.81
Haste = 2.73
Versatility = 2.61
Strength = 2.28
Using pants as an example (which are significantly less sensitive to the value of a socket due to the main stat):
- Going from worst stats at 400 to best stats, a 400 socket is equal in value to a 410 piece.
- Going from best stats at 400 to best stats, a 400 with a socket is equal in value to a 415 piece with a socket.
- Going from best stats at 400 to middle stats, a 400 with a socket is equal to a 420.
Comparing bracers which upgrade around ~ +9/+1.3/+1.3 per ilvl.
- Going from worst stats on 400 to best stats. The 400 with a socket has the same value as a 415.
- Going from best stats on 400 to best stats. The 400 with a socket is equal in value to 420 piece.
The relative strength of socket’s is quite high, and they can quite easily outstrip base ilvl loot of the next difficulty. This is where I think most of the complaints of devaluing gear comes from, the dialogue becomes “I have this 405 socketed bracer, and I won’t be able to replace it unless I get a TF/WF piece from Mythic”. The ilvl upgrade is peanuts compared to sockets, tertiary stats can also have a major impact but that depends on the role (avoidance/leech).
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Entirely meaningless because the guy complained about items forging to the ilvl of the tier above of which he has none that forged that way. Next backpedal attempt?
I feel if they just removed the “warforged” text from the 410 items from M+ cache then there would be a lot less complaining. I think a lot of these guys simply forget where their loot came from.
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See, you think they just don’t pay attention to details. I’m not that…optimistic about their intentions. I honestly believe a lot of them are just elitist tools who want to push back against the status quo of power shifting away from Mythic raiding. They’ve been sitting on top of the ilvl pile for a long long time by a large margin with zero competition from anyone. The sheer fact that people can do M+ and get close to their ilvl is insulting and because the rewards are setup to be alternative progression, they feel compelled by their min/max nature to do that content on top of raiding and they don’t feel they should have to. I don’t think the argument has anything to do with forging. It has everything to do with an ilvl structure that puts the bulk of people far below them. Those casuals are too close for their comfort, let alone the non-deserving folks who run M+ who are neck and neck with them.
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I’ll save you some time. The guy explicitly complained about titanforing and alluded to implementation of an ilvl cap fixing his issue. He didn’t complain about sockets. Trying to pretend the argument is about sockets is a joke. Don’t bother writing some giant long-winded post trying squirm all over the place to justify your claim. You were wrong. Again.
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Absolutely.
Like I said, it’s generally the same subset of players that complain about LFR and Dungeon finder. It’s mostly coming from a feeling of contempt for casual players.
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