Titanforging and Warforging make me upset

Community General Discussion
2877

Thanks for the share, they are interesting ideas.

I’m personally hung up on the base idea of a WF/TF item being a random proc chance - and an ilvl cap wouldn’t address my concerns with it, that’s even with everything else you’ve brainstormed. The best exampe I have is a hunter that used to be in my guild. They got lucky at the start of this patch, first 2 weeks they had an ilvl of 409 and they are up at 412 ilvl currently, they have forged gear from the following sources:

  • Heroic BoD - 410 WF
  • M10 - 415 WF
  • M10 - 420 TF (this is a weapon)
  • M10 - 405
  • M10 - 405

In total these items push their ilvl up to 412 from 407. This player is able to parse at 90% overall but 30% for ilvl. This player is objectively worse than others but has been artificially inflated with TF/WF gear. They are able to do better damage because of that luck and are in the top 2% for ilvl of all players on WCL because of that luck and thus get significantly easier access into harder content to continue gearing than others. TF/WF luck doesn’t provide a fair basis for players to start off and progress. It doesn’t consider effort, there’s enough inherent RNG in the base drops to provide enough luck for healthy gameplay in my opinion and we’d be better of with a system that allows the player control over progression of the ilvl of the gear beyond that (as it was obtained from a random % chance). In a game with a community that values performance and balance the way WoW does, I don’t think TF/WF can exist healthily as an RNG based system, even if some of the power associated with it are moved into professions (which would still be a great change IMO).

I also want to touch on the balance issue of why a % TF/WF on a % drop exacerbates bad/good luck. And it’s pretty straightforward in that if you don’t get the base drop, you have fewer chances of a TF occurring (unless Blizzard has an algorithm to adjust for this). So at the start if you get unlucky on the base drops you’re then inherently at a disadvantage with the number of opportunities you have for a TF, logically you will begin to fall behind the mean of community ilvl progression. The community then moves forward with their average ilvl as you fall behind - and as much as the community has come to use external non-ilvl sources as a gauge of skill, ilvl is still judgement of your characters ability to do harder content. So it would naturally follow that you then have a harder time getting into harder content and it’s a cycle the compounds on itself. If it was something that the player had more control over and came up naturally through a deterministic progression the ilvl difference would due to a players lack of effort in combination with luck rather than just luck x2. Just for a counter arguments sack, let’s this is a scenario where Blizzard has a protection system to prevent this kind of compounding back luck from happening. There is still the appearance of unfairness from the players perspective - never lucky, the game doesnt want to progress - I can’t impact my progression. For me, this is a negative mental cycle. It’s not necessarily game breaking because playing with friends can negate this but i think it does create an inherent unfairness that can be a detriment to the pug community.

2878

Seems like the issue here is Mythic+ providing an abundance of loot. The actual power gained through TF is low.

I should probably add -> I’d like Item Upgrades to make a return. (From the end of MOP).

But they’d share the same space as Titanforge bonuses. So, you could upgrade an item 3 times (+15), (+5 per step). Getting a bonus on it just means you reach maximum value sooner.

Raid Materials would make sense here. (Bloods, Breaths, etc.) (the higher the base item level, the more costly it is. IE: LFR could be upgraded with ridisium i guess. Breaths needed: 385 - 1/3/5; 400; 5/10/15; 415; 15/25/40)

4 Likes
2879

This is far too logical for modern day Blizzard.

There only goal at this point is keeping people on the hamster wheel, any blues that claim otherwise are frankly lying.

2 Likes
2881

Whether it was what you think or not isn’t the point, as I already explained. The question is meaningless. It’s a leading question that fishes for an answer that you want using a false dilemma (if we don’t need it we can get rid of it right!?!?!). Not needing it doesn’t necessitate removing it. The question is an informal fallacy in action.

Whether you believe it’s necessary to achieve the result isn’t relevant as mentioned above. My response was “I like it.” for a reason. I thought you’d understand the point I was making. Nothing is needed. And something not being needed is not justification for removal of it.

2882

I’m not entirely convinced it’s low to be honest. Using mythic 75th percentiles, the average relative % increase of dps for each spec per ilvl is bang on 4%. Some of that will be Azerite and some of that will be flat contribution from base ilvl, even if it’s as small as a 1% dps per 1 overall ilvl for the non azerite, a 5 ilvl difference is 5% dps which is enough to be considered imbalanced when comparing other one spec’s dps to the mean dps for a given raid tier.

I think a token-esque upgrading system sharing space with TF/WF could be a good compromise. First thing that comes to mind is that it could just be tricky to balance the pacing of gear progression while maintaining two systems and still making them feel like a significant part of the progression progression path - but that’s the skeptic in me, and there probably is a good way to make it work.

2883

Based on something Crustyrudder said, perhaps a minor compromise could be made in delaying the ability to obtain WF/TF until “X” weeks into a patch. The initial goal of Thunderforging was incremental gear upgrades from farm content, but having it’s current itteration be available from day 1 of a raid seems to be impossibly skewed. It’s no longer an extra chance at an upgrade or an incremental reward when it’s the very first piece you obtain, invalidating the actual base level of gear. I understand that Blizzard probably doesn’t view WF/TF to be the same thing as when it started in MoP, but a delay could at least mitigate some of the power spike issues, even though I’d still rather see the whole system removed.

2 Likes
2884

It is, if something is not needed it creates bloat and stands in-place of a potentially better system. That’s the reason mature MMO’s like WoW and FF14 go through ability prunes, they remove non-needed abilities so that they have room to introduce new ones. If a system doesn’t adequately help achieve a specific goal, then in any system design it’s removed so something that actually helps better achieve that goal can eventually take it’s place.

2885

Did a fix for ya.

2886

Can’t wait to see the return of seals in Classic, relying almost exlusively on % procs from autos makes for such engaging and thought provoking combat /sarcasm :smile:

2887

I’d still say that it was a massive mistake removing core abilities though. Like in Legion I started off without having Freezing Trap. Something that was the bread and butter for CC’ing as a Hunter and they gated it behind SV because of “class fantasy”

2888

They took disarm traps from rogues.

It was totally passive and has been a core of the thief/rogue archetype since it’s inception.

There’s no defending that, really.

2889

Ya, but you’re responding to Cyouskin… And he gave you his definition and how he was using the terms. Respond to such statements with his definitions in mind when responding to him. Otherwise you’re just strawmanning. I get that other people use the term “casual” as a pejorative… that doesn’t mean that I, cyous, or many other people see the word casual as such.

Stating facts is not demonstrating an ego. Usain Bolt stating he’s the fastest man alive is not him stating that everyone else sucks at running. Just more projection there Avagon…

You’re off base when you’re insinuating that he’s the prototypical elitist who despises casual players and sees them as beneath him. At least that’s how I’ve read your posts, please correct me if I’m wrong that that’s not what you’re saying.

If that is the case, you haven’t met an actual elitist then. I’m also a mythic progression raider… I have met and played with actual elitist… Let me let you in on a little secret… they don’t come to GD because they see it as a dumpster fire of trash. That’s their opinion of the entire forum, you, me, and everyone in it.

Please tell me again about how Cyous, an MVP, a guide writer, a theorycrafter, who’s provided metric craptons of feedback that has ACTUALLY changed the game is an elitist who doesn’t give a rats rear about casuals…

Could you show me where he stated that his opinion matters more than others? Seems out of character to me. If anything he seems to have stated his credentials to back up the fact that he isn’t a typical elitist who just hates casuals.

I guess you are right in that insulting is maybe too strong a word for my last paragraph. I do however think it is a cop out. Can you point to someone who has specifically stated that they would prefer less content in lieu of more RNG to stretch out that content?

Do YOU really think that such an RNG carrot on a stick will keep people long term?

2890

False equivalency. Assuming you are talking about Wrath of the Lich King, I truly doubt that player explosion was caused by “OMG THE ONE PROGRESSION PATH IS AWESOME!”. It was more likely due to Arthas, an enemy that everyone recalled from Warcraft 3.

2891

Hey, a little off-topic, but do you guys think Avagon is a lawyer or a politician?

1 Like
2892

The most sad thing in Titanforging and Warforging system as i discovered is:
Harder you spam raids & m+ - lower quality loot you get!
The system is designed to use Titanforges like а carrot for a donkey to get less active players and characters interested. Just enough to get them interested.
After it becomes “world of wast_of_time” - minimum quality loot.

2893

Ya, but nothing. We can agree to disagree. Me saying I don’t believe C when he says “I swear I respect casuals!” is not a strawman. Might want to read up on the definition. Usain Bolt stating, “Just because I’m the fastest man alive…” when in the middle of discussing the speed of people who aren’t runners…sounds pretty egotistical to me. But again, your opinion that something is projection isn’t a catch all cop out you can fall back to. Well, you can, at which point I have to ask myself if I care when you’re just going to throw the label against everything you disagree with. Hell, when I’m telling you my reasons and you’re ignoring that that’s a strawman! Wait, no, that’s (as pointed out above) not what that means. At some point I have to say you seem to be protesting a tad too much. Obviously you’re a fanboy of his and not trying to be unbiased. To which this part of the conversation is done. Much like the topic, you can’t change my mind by arguing with me that my opinion is wrong. It’s subjective. This is my assessment. You don’t have to like or agree with it. That’s how opinions work.

Who said the choice is between less content and more RNG? I’m not the one making the claim that something is insulting to casuals. I can look at casuals who have posted on the matter, again, none of them used the word insulting. And I didn’t use the word because you used it, I used the word because he used it. It’s just funny that everyone starts parroting it because they think they have an argument not based on their own feelings. “It’s good for those guys, over there! That’s why we should change it, not because I want it to change. I swear!”

1 Like
2894

… And with this my opinion is right with his… You’re a waste of time.

Because that’s literally one of the topics Cyous was discussing in regards to spoon feeding players… As for “parroting” (second time you’ve accused me of that), I made no intention of hiding that I was agreeing with him? I even added “also” the first time I used it…

Sorry dude, but this isn’t worth the effort. Your non-stop twisting words and arguments to suit your own views as you want to see them. You add nothing to the conversation, but add something inflammatory to keep the argument going.

You’re obviously obsessed with being right at the expense of finding the truth of a matter. Grow up a bit and we can chat later.

5 Likes
2895

His argument wasn’t about respecting casuals. His argument was about TF and it’s impact on the game, respecting casuals was a jibe in an attempt to make it understood his opinion isn’t to offend people who identify as such - but for some reason you think that’s the argument. That’s the definition of staw manning… don’t worry though, at this point its pretty well established you won’t admit you’re wrong about it and will argue it to death with non-equivalent comparisons.

Does a doctor in a room of non-doctors talking about medicine announcing that he’s a doctor to inform the populous of his knowledge make him condecending? Lol k, I too don’t like it when someone who’s knowledgeable about a system or subject state that they are knowledgeable about it.

All but one of the new arguments have been about how the system is detrimental to their gameplay experience with the exception of 1. But dont worry, you’ll ignore them, if I cared more I’d put a tally together but you’d ignore that too :laughing:

There’s been a lot of valid feedback with people have different experiences, one of the general experiences is it feels like crap to progress through content and have stuff drop you cant use because something better McForged from a lesser difficulty :man_shrugging: but instead of reading others opinions you spend more time trying to invalidate them with what seem like facetious remarks (but for some reason I don’t think you’re trying to be facetious). For the love of all that is holy, let people post their opinions without cluttering up the feedback for the CM.

1 Like
2897

And look, more inflammatory comments.

/colored surprised…

Ciao.

Blues, can we please get ignore back on these forums?

6 Likes
2898

I think it’s one of those cases where being rare doesn’t necessarily mean that it doesn’t affect peoples game play.
On top of that I don’t believe you have to hit a mega-jackpot for it to have in game affects.
Personally I don’t have the time to play the game very often anymore due to other commitments, yet I myself have about eight 15 - 25 titanforges. That doesn’t seem like much of a gap, but in reality it means that half of my gear has no had potential upgrades throughout the entire raid tier I have been progressing through as a guild.

That I believe is an issue. From day 1 upon release I had 3 potential upgrades from normal BoD. Only 1 of those I actually upgraded with a BoD drop, the rest were upgraded through WQs and now I everything is above 385.

Going into Heroic tonight I also already have the dilemma that I have 6 pieces that are 400+ devaluing a lot of potential rewards for me for progressing through the content.

So from a point of view of a player who wants to progress through to more difficult content, it really reduces one of the core aspects of doing more difficult content, in the form of gear acquisition, while also artificially reducing the difficulty due to being better geared relative to the supposed difficulty gap between content.

The majority of our guild is 392+ with some being 395 and 396. Yet none of us have even touched Heroic yet. (to clarify nor +10s)

Obviously you have a different opinion to mine in how you state that unlimited forging gives a continued progression path.
I understand what you mean in how it is constantly on going. Yet it’s not assured by any means.

Not only that but it means you are repeatedly doing the same process over and over and over until you do get lucky. That sounds a lot like pulling on a slot machine and losing over and over until you get a small win, or potentially eventually a jack pot.
I don’t think that is necessarily the best design for a game.

There are a lot of other things that you can do in WoW aside from repeating the same content for gear, so I don’t see why we need to be continually incentivised. We should be doing the content of our choice because we want to.

The continuing access of higher level gear for the content you are undertaking also has affects on the social aspects of the game how people try and perceive your worth as a player ie metrics like raider io or AotC, while also increasing the social prerequisites of ilvl for doing content.
No doubt we are all aware of the many groups requesting equivalent if not higher ilvl than the content they are getting a group for.

It also has an affect on the world content, which is made available to all players.
ilvl scaling world enemies I think is the greatest display of this, and is something that amongst the community is quite disliked.
You see the thing with increasing rewards available to players is that content becomes less threatening (relevant) in response to it.
As you gear up you kill things quicker because they get weaker relative to your increased power.

This classic RPG element is getting impacted due to the excessive availability of higher rewards, and in particular the scaling rewards that world content grants.
Since world rewards are considered relevant to every level of player now, it is a necessity to have some form of scaling to ensure that the content itself is also relevant.

I believe that as experienced in the past, without these systems in place and with a more steady progression curve the world can reasonably not require these scaling properties, allowing us as players to more significantly experience our characters growth.

Now I don’t believe it is out of the picture to have multiple progression paths in the game. I personally think that M+, raiding, and PvP have proved that too us.
However for alternative means of progression I think that the difficulty still has to be equivalent.
Currently WQs are not the equivalent of normal raids etc and yet are treated as such with its rewards.

Should a more challenging world with elite quests or solo challenge modes be released I absolutely think that there is a place for those rewards.
I just don’t see it in the current design of the game.