I call BS. It’s just not that big of a deal. ML is a real issue but titanforging? That is just BS.
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Anecdotes are anecdotes, I stated as such. Do you have any data to support your assertion? I mean you’re the one who stated we should have listened to all those people that left. Can you demonstrate why they left? Don’t answer. We know you can’t.
Edit: As to whether it’s crazy? No not really. I don’t believe you actually know dozens of people that would resub if forging was removed. You’re one of the people who are hyperbolic to the point where what you say could be construed as being blatantly, intentionally dishonest. So am I surprised you’d make outlandish claims to “win” an argument? Not really.
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I’ve said it before but nobody has left solely because of Titanforging. It’s always multiple things that contribute to someone quitting a game they have spent hundreds or thousands of hours playing. People generally leave when the game doesn’t feel fulfilling or rewarding.
Let’s say you have a 5 question quiz for a class. Would it be more rewarding to you if you studied and worked hard then 5/5 aced the quiz, or if you didn’t have a plan at all, randomly guessed and got lucky to get all 5 answers correct?
That’s basically Titanforging. Will more people stick around to play the loot slot machine than people who would rather set goals for gear and work towards them? All we can do is look at the sub numbers and guess.
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Nope you can still get super lucky and find an EPIC…
“OMG! I m a better player than he is “I” should get the epic!!” ![:sob:](https://d38bqls1q93fod.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/sob.png?v=6" ":sob:")
No it doesnt. How does player B getting super lucky remove your achievement or progress? ![:laughing:](https://d38bqls1q93fod.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/laughing.png?v=6" ":laughing:")
You guys are frageeelay’
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So then you admit that your claim that you know dozens of people who would resub if forging were removed is a lie? That was easy.
Your comparison to a quiz is a false equivalency. You’re trying to compare motivations between something that’s a game, a form of entertainment, and an exam that you’ll be rated on that will stick with you, something you generally have no choice about, and something that could impact real life opportunities in a lot of ways pending the educational level we’re talking about because failing has real consequences. It’s just not comparable to forging in any substantive way.
Again, what you believe is dictating the outcome you see. Not data. The reality is if Blizzard, people who actually have data on the matter, knew an easy solution it would be implemented in a heartbeat. Which means if forging was the problem, or to expand upon that if the reward system in general was the problem it would change. And thus far they’ve given zero indication that they have plans to change any of that. My guess is as much as it pisses off people who think they’re the arbiters of what people deserve, that forging is actually keeping casuals subscribed because it’s giving them content in bite sized chunks that gives them a progression path. But that’s just my guess.
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You completely missed the point. The point is that setting a goal, planing and taking steps to reach the goal, then finally reaching the goal will always feel more rewarding than getting lucky. This holds true in work, school, sports, games, health, etc.
Also to be honest, I don’t mind if forging stays in the game. But it should be capped to +10 ilvls and there should also be a way to work towards forging your gear through non luck based methods.
I didn’t miss the point, I responded to the point you wrote. But if you want to walk it back to just being what you have above I’d be happy to respond to that, you’re objectively wrong. It might be how you work, though I don’t think that’s an honest appraisal either. People are more complicated than that, context matters. How rewarding something is depends on a lot of things, expectation, attitude, what they value, etc. But more to the point, it’s not how everyone works and how people work in this regard can change depending upon what you’re talking about. Which is sorta the crux of this debate that you keep glossing over.
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Obviously not everyone fits the mold. I guess compulsive gamblers get fulfillment from random luck. Maybe that is the target audience for WoW.
I never had issues grinding out best in slot for every slot before this. Now it’s impossible. You cannot be the best if not by luck. That’s lame. Grinding out 1 legendary feels like grinding out 1 425 item.
Thats all that needs to be said. I left because I could no longer set up goals to achieve. For example, I have debt, but have a plan to pay it back, and can see how long it will take. When I reach that goal, I will fell great satisfaction from a sense of accomplishment. But Blizzard is against this mentality, they have said time and again that they dislike people actually being able to plan out when they will have things. My actions are basic normal human nature. Humans set up goals and try to achieve them. The game is now basically fighting basic human psychology because you can set-up any long-term goals with determined dates of accomplishment.
The game has decided to value thrill, which is a short-term emotion, over accomplishment, which people will sometimes brag about for years. You don’t build your sense of worth when things are just given to you, it happens when you feel your hard work was rewarded.
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If a co-worker did the same work as you, but got paid twice as much, you would care.
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You are missing the fact that people playing this game are still humans with emotions, and a human brain, which has basic human psychology. The real world examples are meant to help you understand the frustration people feel. Your counter argument is that it’s just a game is shallow because the real point is that people inside a video game or outside are animals that enjoy setting up clear goals and accomplishing them. When that is removed, there is a sense of frustration whether it be a video game or real life.
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Well no, you’re trying to overcomplicate human motivation. Psychology has a several well established theory’s that directly apply to human motivation within gaming.
- Variable reward with an average outcome yields greater participation (skinners box) - This exists in the current form through drop %.
- When rewards are removed, people tend to stop participating (over justification effect) - This is why the game continually increases ilvl and characters grow at roughly ~1% increase in relative dmg per 1 overall ilvl.
- If you know/perceive you have to put more effort in to receive a better reward, you’re more likely to do so. Conversely, if it’s percieved to be determined purely by luck, you’re less likely to put a similar amount of effort in.
- The more effort put into an action, the more intense the emotion/feeling of the success/loss.
Effort = gameplay. The variable rewards are base drop chances, titanforging is pure luck, gear capping removes reward, easy rewards are less engaging.
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Titanforging as a system of pure luck doesn’t provide an incentive for continual gameplay. It’s different from the skinners box because nothing you do has any input on the outcome.
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It accelerates the rate that you reach a point where you’re gear capped. If you only have upgrades remaining from the hope of titanforging, then to reiterate the point above you have a purely luck based system of upgrading where no input from you determines the outcome.
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Intensity of emotional reactions is directly related to effort in. That’s why nerd screams from boss kills exist. That challenge only happens once though, so what maintains that strong emotional engagement is loot and character growth, therefore gear upgrading as a system isn’t a bad thing, but the way titanforging is implemented currently is because of all the other problems described above.
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I don’t understand how players get emotional over pixels either. So saying we’re all trapped in that psychological loop is false. The OP’s complaint is simple “It’s not fair to me.”
I’m pretty sure, they would complain that someone that makes more money than they do. Or has a nicer home, or a prettier wife, or a better dog.
I don’t get it. Why complain all the time about what you don’t have simply because someone got it?
Sounds petty and very negative to be emotional over it.
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It’s not about being emotional about what others have, it’s about feeling you can set out goals to be achieved with clear end-points. People get emotional about pixels as they do any sort of hobbies or other things in their lives. It’s basic human nature to try to succeed and strategize how to achieve it, whether that be a bowling league, a bridge club, a home renovation project, or a video game where you are trying to accomplish certain goals. In the current system, they removed clear goal posts along with a sense of accomplisment, tied in seeing others sometimes obtain more, from doing the same thing, which then makes any effort put in feel worthless because you saw someone else achieve something greater for doing the same amount of work.
That’s what it comes down to: people would rather set goals and work towards them rather than constantly spinning a wheel.
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Unfairness is literally a psychological condition that creates negative emotions, regardless of whether it’s statistically factual or just a perception. Unfairness can still extend into a virtual medium. Luck & scarcity makes titanforging a perceived unfairness. The odds of a significant TF happening are low, so the time it takes for everyone to get it takes far longer than a tier will exist for. Some people will also get it sooner than others, giving them an earlier advantage over another person. Whether that has any actual impact on the game, the potential for it to impact creates a perception of unfairness and creates a negative response to the system.
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Again, its wasn’t fair to you because someone else got lucky. It’s like complaining that someone won the same lottery you purchased a ticket for.
You paid for your ticket just the same way he did.
This situation is no different. The WF/TF system is a lottery. You either win or you don’t. That’s the manner for which the “Goal Post” were changed.
Perhaps this is why I can’t see the emotional tie. I don’t view this as being Unfair because you should already know the system isn’t bias. Its just a roll of the dice.
I understand unfairness, but all have to know when it’s our perception and when it’s factual. I have a notion that it is the former compared to the latter in this situation.
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You’re using the term emotional in the same vein as “overreaction.” You’re twisting the point. No one is wailing and bawling over gear (I hope), but frustration or excitment are common. Accomplishment and pride are emotions that I daresay are the entire point of video games. Unless you live life as a boring, reactionless blob, these are basic and typical human emotions to feel on a day to day basis.
However, the gearing system has led us to a point where we are frustrated more than we are excited, or feel accomplished. As stated, the goal in several senses has all but been eliminated, and is now made up of many unfulfilling moments instead.
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No, it’s not that we both won lottery tickets where we both knew the outcome would be determined by chance. It’s that previously you could set out goals and expect a certain reward based on that effort. When two people put in the same effort, but one gets more of a reward, it makes the person who got less of a reward feel worse about their actions. It’s less about jealousy and more about decided if you should keep putting in the effort in. As previously noted:
- If you know/perceive you have to put more effort in to receive a better reward, you’re more likely to do so. Conversely, if it’s percieved to be determined purely by luck, you’re less likely to put a similar amount of effort in.
- The more effort put into an action, the more intense the emotion/feeling of the success/loss.
Effort = gameplay. The variable rewards are base drop chances, titanforging is pure luck, gear capping removes reward, easy rewards are less engaging.
- Titanforging as a system of pure luck doesn’t provide an incentive for continual gameplay. It’s different from the skinners box because nothing you do has any input on the outcome.
The issue isn’t jealousy, the issue is the feeling that there’s no connection between what you do and the outcome. The frustration then increases when you see someone else do the same thing as you, but obtain a better outcome. You’re left wondering why you should keep spinning the wheel when you have no idea when it will hit. You could be putting in so much work, and not have it rewarded, which just leads to people stopping and leaving the game.
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