What makes Torghast exciting to me as a casual player:
Anima powers.
These are huge. The first time i saw Asmon run it as DH, i genuinely thought either it was a bug or they were cramming in all 72 floors of drops into the first 10 levels just to facilitate testing. When i realised this was the core design i was blown away and salivating at the possibility of all the fun specs you could run.
The floor challenges.
I get to go as far as i can. Honestly, i dont expect to make it to the highest floors. Iām bell-curve, but iād put myself in the lower half of the bell-curve in terms of skill. But its my tower run, my challenge, and my goals. Thats awesome! Im not messing with anyone elses game (as i would in hardcore content), no ones watching or caring. I can just enjoy it at my own pace.
Random generation (luck):
This is really a combination of points 1 and 2. Most of the time iām liable to hit a range of floors (and perhaps with further tuning on mob/difficulty, a very narrow range of floors). But once in a while iām going to have a terrible run, whilst once in a while im going to get that perfect run where mob difficulty and spec creation just align to let me see whats going on in those upper floors.
All of the above:
The anticipation is that as a low skilled player, i should routinely hit a solid range of floors hopefully somewhere in the middle. Higher skill players should obviously go higher. And even higher skilled players should go about as far as they like. This is assuming tuning. Of COURSE, this being procedurally generated, there will be outliers and moments where you can move beyond that normal range now and again, but this should a) be completely acceptable since it keeps the random element which is one of its core features; and b) be statistically irrelevant. So you got lucky this week? Praise be to RNGesus!
Ideally however, and theyre still working precisely on the issue of anima powers overpowering the higher floors through drops, tuning should hopefully hit that sweet spot. Reasonably, it wonāt fix every class and spec, with some doing noticeably better than others (but again, once the data comes in they can just re-tune some anima powers benefiting too highly to bring everyone back into a fair range). Not a perfect balance, but a āfair rangeā.
So Tormentsā¦
Honestly, preach was pretty fair and reasonable on them. The challenge comes from mob mechanics. The torments are a hindrance, but itās apparently only minor. If you learn the mechanics, the torments wonāt hold you back. So no real concern outright on them.
So what is the concern?
The floodgates opening up. Players calling for āmore challengeā, āmore difficultiesā, ātimersā, āgroup rewardsā, āpower creep progressionā.
The real danger is that instead of just accepting Torghast for what it is, players are going to start petitioning for multiple formats and looking for Blizzard to provide rewards concomitant with those āchallengesā.
Alternatively, theyāll look for a level 1-9 to give you your mandatory reward (the legendary pieces), but then insist that post level 10 everything ramps up dramatically (as ive seen in this thread), and the ārealā challenge kicks in.
Whats the problem? Higher skill = higher reward:
On the latter point, the fun of torghast will be playing with those floors, moving up, learning the fights, building unique specs and occasionally being blessed with a bit of luck so you can see even further. A few floors will only give players a limited taste of the experience. And a significant increase in the difficulty curve (a hard break) will switch people off this as the centerpiece feature of end game world content. Instead of wanting to do Torghast because it is intrinsically fun, theyāll peace out once they get their legendary components and view it as just another weekly chore. It risks completely breaking the spirit of it.
In the case of the former, this has the potential to completely destroy it for casual players. Two tiers of Torghast (one timed with rewards, one basic with garbage ātourist modeā rewards) is going to force a choice: Do the challenge version and progress your character or do the meaningless version and completely waste your time with trivial rewards no doubt made redundant after the second raid drops.
And here we come back to the central problem of high pressure content. Some people simply hate doing it when it is forced upon them. Rather than do it, theyāll often drop out of the game completely. Torghast has to carry a lot of the expansionās weight of expectations. If it fails, thereās a not unreasonable chance the expansion fails (cf warfronts and islands).
Torghast really had something that looked super fun catering to all spheres of the playerbase. Itās one system, every player gets to pay their token and see how far they go. But i fear that players (with all their āessential changesā) are just going to destroy it. Thatās my real concern.
Normally, you and I have a similar approach to arguments when it comes to these forums, but in this case Iām on the opposite side of this from you.
We already have a form of timed content in this game in the way of M+. If youāre looking for that sense of urgency in defeating a clock, then go play M+. Iād rather we not add a second form of content where my ability to progress is directly linked to a clock.
In all honesty, I couldnāt care less if people want to wait for blood lust for every. single. pull. That may not be your (or my preferred) method of play, but that is SOME peoples preferred method of play.
You also canāt use the āpower gainsā approach to this argument, as was done before, because it sounds like the point in which these torments start racking up is beyond where you can actually continue gaining power from Torghast. As such what weāre talking about in regards to this system, is what happens at the top end of Torghast.
At that point, I am 100% not interested in my progress being linked to how efficiently I can clear the floor. I have multiple CEās, numerous AotCs, multiple KSMs (not to tout my horn too much, but KSM/AotC is pretty much a given for meā¦) so the issue here isnāt skill. Itās all in how I approach the content. I do NOT want to be figuring out how to efficiently clear floors. I WANT to be exploring and relaxing. I WANT to be challenged with the mechanicsā¦ not in how fast I execute those mechanics.
Finally, if youāre really looking for numbers to back up this sentiment. Well hereās preachās last video where he 100% rails against torments. Now admittedly Iām sure that many of those votes on the video are just there because itās preachā¦ But 5.7k up votesā¦ isnāt exactly the same 3-4 people in one thread is it. Heck, just scroll through the comments on the videoā¦
Exactly, donāt you think itās time to give some hard dungeon that are not timed? Just for a change. Everything made has always be for the people that like timers, how about going the other way for once.
Itās genuinely not about what other people want to do, itād be about what Iām forced to do.
With no timers, eventually youāre going to reach a point where the only practical way forward is to AFK for cooldowns. And having played in the days when cooldowns didnāt reset, doing fights where cooldowns are necessary for doing Phase 1 or whatever, and having several minute of downtime because you needed to wait for those cooldowns again, was awful and I donāt want that experience to come back in Torghast either.
And in Preachās video, one of his major points is that Torments are bad because theyāre basically ignorable.
They go AFK for an hour and the physical damage debuff they get ramps up to like 170% and theyāre still perfectly fine.
But like I said in my earlier post, Iām a supporter of the concept, not the execution. Torments are the simplest solution, but if Blizzard can disincentivise excessive downtime through another method, Iām not going to be against that either.
Yeah, HM Mechagon exists and is completely untimed.
To be 100% honest I donāt see how an hour per floor is anywhere near the optimal strategy. That would require some EXTREME playtime if you were trying to do it that way.
I also understand yet I still disagree. I think having 1 content where itās a timer and the other where itās a crawl would be a good balance in content moving forward. If someone wants to play extremely slow and careful, then I donāt see the harm in doing so personally.
I should know better by now, but I just canāt understand why Blizzard feels the need to take a bat to anything thatās perceived as fun like they just saw a spider. I can understand not wanting content to be finished in a week, but thatās not an excuse for not trying and just patching it up with hurdles like Torments.
Blizzard regularly limits the potential benefits of endless grinding, and not because they lack confidence in your ability as an adult to self-regulate. Rather, it is so endless grinding does not become a socially-imposed norm by other adults who are willing to go further than you are.
Fortunately, Blizzard has not forced you to buy this game yet. You can still enjoy BFA without any purchase of Shadowlands while it remains in alpha.
First, Preach only showed one type of Torments. There are different Torment debuffs to account for, meaning different possible effects. Preach video outlines the more āsomewhat manageable, depending on situation and class.ā If you watch those runs closely, Preach group DH tank looks like getting ramp from mob pull on the higher floors. Eventually, there will be a time you need to wait on cds because anima power rng not good. Preach outline if you get the right anima power that removes the cd on your spells, there will be no problem. The problem you donāt get right power because you force go fast and missed some power buff, you hit a wall and run may end there. This outline in Taliesin & Evitel about torments, and getting the right anima power could affect run. BellularGaming describes a case where you eventually hit a map that takes 15 minutes to complete before getting to the boss. Imagine you have 15 stacks of different types of Torment, it feel weird because still waiting for hero for the boss.
BellularGaming describes this whole torment idea as blizzard creating a problem that was not an issue. This whole Torment is basically a waste of time that blizzard created; they need to admit this not worth the resources. The main problem going into shadowlands will be the class design, spells, covenant abilities, and endgame feel of the classes. Then next teir is how the teir set will interact with the classes and other problems. This whole torment idea is trash; it not worth the resources. Blizzard need pour large amount of resources to class design first testing. I can tell you Mages are crying about slimmer and not being part PVP in shadowlands. Druids and priests having some minor problems. In long term game, the main thing people look at PVE raids and dungeon and PVP areans and bgs. This will include the art design for teir set, that people want so badly. PVP changes will there be templates again and so on. Torghast is minor problem on side that end up like island expo, you get weekly done and it done next toon again and again. The main problem will always be classes and how they interact with the game.
P.S. it funny looking BellularGaming mention Demon Souls and Dark Souls because Bandai Namco new game inspire by Dark Souls did good job following Dark Souls formula.
just wanted to post to remind you that i was right and you were wrong and they got rid of the timers because of whiners like me and not kiss es like you
es like you