Tier sets in Vanilla are really bad. They only focus on a specific spec and are often terribly itemized.
Tier Tokens like in TBC allow you to choose the tier set that best suits your gameplay. This will help players who want to play specs that were never really played in Vanilla due to not having the gear available and thus not being good.
Paladin T2 for example doesn’t really do anything for either of the 3 specs, maybe Prot? Or a Spell Damage Shockadin. But it has no defense for Prot for example. Paladin T1 is a really bad healing set when compared to a Priests tier set, and does nothing for Prot Paladins or Ret Paladins.
The look of the sets dont need to change, only stats and set bonuses would need to be adjusted to better suit the different specs for Classes.
A Retribution set that prioritized melee damage stats. A Holy set that prioritized healing power and healing stats. And a Protection set that prioritized Stamina, Int, Spell Damage and Defense.
Perhaps back when the game was developed they could not make these changes, but they definitely got it right when TBC was created.
Man they didn’t get the sets figured out till Tier3, look how much spirit is on T1 and 2, its great for priests, but its excessive for everything else.
Always hated when they added tokens. Really sucked the rpg nature out of the game. Instead of looting gear and getting that amazing rush of finally getting a piece…you just get a token. Always felt a lot more hollow to me.
By the way, you should understand that Classic was just designed very differently. Classes were expected to be certain roles in certain content, and that’s why the tier sets were what they were. I know you’re talking about Classic+…but that’s fundamentally changing how the game was built.
Right the point of Classic + is to create a better Classic WoW Vanilla.
Sure the game was designed a certain way early on but by Naxx T3 they realized how bad their Tier sets were itemized early on in the game. They only offered 1 set of gear for the Tier Token but this was changed with TBC after realizing only having 1 tier set doesn’t let the other specs shine.
Ret is still going to be bad. Moonkins will still go oom. Shadow Priests. Feral Cat wont be top tier like Rogues or Fury Warriors. But having a set for those specs is better than not having a set for them.
Without world buffs in raids those other specs may come out doing good DPS if the itemization for their spec tier sets are well done. As well as creating new set bonuses for the spec specific tier sets.
Well 'better’ is completely subjective, but obviously if such a thing existed that would be its goal.
Here’s my concern with this idea. I look at how things played out the first time around in this game. RPG elements were sucked out of classes and mass homogenization took over all in the name of ‘balance’. Players stopped…having fun. It wasn’t a game anymore. It was obsessing over the fact x class does 1% more damage than y class. And Blizz has been chasing that dream of balance for 17 years, and are the players any happier? Do they complain less? Is the game any more fun? Is it more popular? Maybe that’s not what made the game so great to begin with.
All of this is connected. Player mentality, how they look at the game and why they play it. What motivates them. Look at Retail. They’ve got 20 different levels of difficulty, mythics, speed runs. Is it any wonder players take the game so damn seriously and can’t just relax and concentrate on FUN? Is that a path I want to see Classic go down again? And it really started with that terrible anti-rpg design of ‘Bring the player, not the class’.
With all that said, I’m not completely against this notion. Obviously not with tokens, for the reasons I listed earlier…it’s such a hollow feeling to loot that rather than actual gear. But at least making specs more viable isn’t a terrible goal. It’s also up to the players not to min/max to the point where unless those specs are perfectly optimal they don’t allow them in raids. Which is up to the designers not to design raids that force that kind of mentality. WoW doesn’t need to be a damn e-sport. Let players just have fun. That’s what’s going to be successful. If they need to be tested and prove how amazing they are…just play Retail. Classic should strive for other goals and offer a different experience.
Long-winded way of saying I agree it would be nice if players can play the spec they ENJOY rather than what’s optimal in a raid setting. But Blizz has to be careful, because we’ve seen just how that can twist how players approach the game and how it can suck the identity out of classes. Blizz could do things like having spec-specific buffs and debuffs. So it’s not all about dps. They could be stackable so a raid isn’t just bringing 1 player of a spec. Obviously the top guilds are going to optimize whatever the devs do, but for the mass majority of players simply making specs viable enough not to be a liability is a fine goal. And really with simply better itemization at least you could play your spec without going OOM or being completely ineffective.
I don’t think that Tier Sets would lead to homogenization of Vanilla. Tier Sets for the other specs and improved upon itemization would only make unplayed specs better than they were by giving them a gear option.
Homogenization really came by trying to give every class the same type of abilities to even the playing field. I’m not saying new abilities should be given to Classes, just better itemized Tier Sets to allow the less played specs a better chance to be competitive.
IMO no world buff meta in raid along with no debuff limit and increased boss life will greatly open up the possibility for DPS classes / specs.
Warriors and Rogues were so good because they had gear options that were really tailored for them to succeed, not to mention World Buffs as well. Other Classes had gear that forced them to play a certain way.
If anything, Tier Set options with no World Buffs and no debuff limit may shake up the meta of what’s a good composition rather than bringing 25 warriors.
Shadow Priests, Ret Paladins, Boomkins, Ele Shamans, Enhance Shamans, Feral Cats, Warlocks being able to use their dots, etc.
But will Blizzard actually want to develop new content for Classic WoW is the question. Idk.
yea, if tier gear allows people to develop different playstyles around the class & spec they’re playing, nothing bad can come from it.
homogenization of the game came when every race could be any class & spec at once. not by allowing different viable playstyles that are not necessarely mages & warriors for dps. in fact, making warriors and mages meta for dps creates homogenization of both classes on end-game, which makes the game experience less singular and rich (everyone has pretty much the same class).
Honestly, the reason for tokens for T4 and beyond is because as we all saw with classic, oh great it’s the Hunter T2 boots again, they improved it slightly with nax, and when it came time for TBC and T4 they fully realized having an armor peice drop instead of token would have meant
It would have caused a revolt, and pissed so many people off, I say do it like T4 and T3 combined, for T3 you still felt a sense of working for it
Same token breakdown as Tier 3, but now for Tier 1 and 2. Give a quest that requires for say Molten Core firey cores, molten cores, core leather, BWL Elementium, combined with rugged hides, enchanted thorium what have you. Now reitemize the tier sets to suit what is best for the class and spec, say lawbringer for ret change healing to damage done by spells, since ret needs spell power, and send some of the spirit into strength, for Prot same changes, but instead convert all the strength to defense, leave the other ret changes on the gear, now you’ve got a protdin set, and reitemize it for holy also, maybe ditch the strength and make it intel or more healing power.
The rush isn’t there but I RP it to myself.
I’ve looted an valuable armor scrap from this boss, it has properties that, when restored by an experienced craftsman in town will make an exceptional armor for myself.
I suppose. The guy above made a good point in that there would be an insane amount of gear that might potentially drop if every spec now has its own item in every slot. You could just…have more gear drop. Seems pretty simple to me. Also, have more sources of gear. Does everything have to be from a raid boss? Let crafting shine. Make complex and challenging quest chains. They had some of that in Vanilla. So…do more.
Such was the design of old school WoW. If you were able to heal you were expected to heal and the sets reflected that (except AQ40 and of course the odd man out Lawbringer set). AQ40 sets were meant to fill that other roll Blizzard thought hybrid classes might want to fill.
No one wants to get gated out of raids or dungeons just because you want people to play holy/resto instead of prot or ret, or enhanced or balance.
Classic community ideal of gating specified specs out of dungeons and raid were extremely awful and toxic. Vanilla at least didn’t have that set of mind back in 05-07, because no one wanted to gate people out of it as long as dungeon went smooth.
Tokens in Tier 3 existed to balance out the error they had in T1 and T2. And it worked, which was why TBC added separate tier spec based gear for T4+
A Token for the Tier Sets is a better option due to not having to rely on the RNG of a specific spec tier set item to drop. That would make the gear acquisition horrible having to rely on RNG to drop your spec tier item.
Tier Sets have always dropped from bosses. This is how WoW has always been. In many cases, professions do create BiS loot.
For a hybrid class to be able to choose and armor set with a token would be huge. Reitemizing the original sets and creating new ones for the Hybrid classes would be a really great addition to the game.
Giving the non traiditional specs an opportunity to shine lets people play other specs without being too garbage. Like yeah, a boomkin and shadow priest will not be on the same level as a mage or warlock, but with a removed debuff cap and a Tier Set that is tailored for their specs, they may do good.
Dropping a token in place of gear from bosses seems like an easy solution to me. Vendors can be placed in Capital cities to redeem the gear.