Though it’s a relatively infrequent occurrence, I’ve noticed a number of times in which I will queue into a dungeon, the client either crashes or freezes momentarily, and during the time I am either restarting the client or am loading in I will be kicked from the group or an encounter will have started respectively. The latter case is most common with Theater of Pain, which essentially opens with a boss encounter. This isn’t to begrudge the players kicking me, all they see is a player in their group has disconnected and they want to progress; however, it’s incredibly annoying to incur the 15~minute LFG dungeon cooldown for something which is not anyone’s fault.
To clarify for those who might not understand, I’m not referring to the deserter debuff, I’m not saying that people should be able to leave a dungeon without penalty. When you enter a dungeon, there is a cooldown incurred before you can requeue, which is 15 minutes. It seems strange for players to be penalized for being kicked within 15~minutes of a dungeon starting. The only time I’ve ever seen this applied is when a player is having some technical issue beyond their control, and rarely in the case of a disruptive player.
So, I put it to the community, do you think that this penalty should be incurred, or do you think it is archaic design that should be removed?
in today wow yeah makes no sense , but i remember when it was implemented tons of players alt f4 when the dungeon that popped wasnt the one they wanted…
In makes no sense today since the issue that was the reason for it being added was fixed by it.
Removing the cool down timmer only aids in readding that issue. Like alt f4 when you don’t get the instance you want. Tanks asking people to kick them after getting a run they dint like or droping groups after speed pulling to boss one and killing it to drop group for a new run if they dint like there.
In fact theatre of pain is a prime example of exactly why it exists it’s a run you can run to boss 1 kill and drop right away for a new one if it’s not the run your aiming for. The cool down helps keep people from droping without a good reason.
As for client crashes and tech issues “beyond your control” many of them are not truly beyond your control. For example people not loading in at the same time as the rest of the group is often fixed by a ssd drive that was in fact added to the recommended specs for Warcraft with shadowlands. Crashes durring loads also are reduced via the same. More stable connections also prevent that something yet again in your control. There is a reason some people have had a far better launch experience than other and keeping your hardware and connection up to par is a large part of it. If your crashing often enough on loads for this to be a issue it’s unlikly a issue beyond your control but a factor that is at least in part caused by your end and as such within your control to reduce.
The problem is this is strictly a penalty on players who are kicked from groups, not on players who leave an instance early. People who leave early should already have the Dungeon Deserter debuff applied to them, which makes the queue timer an unnecessary redundancy. Theater of Pain is a fair example of an edge case, which I understand it can be annoying if a tank or healer leaves after the first boss but these aren’t equal situations; one is an edge case in which players can leave a dungeon early and will be replaced in short other, and is specific to a single dungeon this expansion, the other is a more broad case in which players who suffer technical issues can incur undue dungeon cooldowns after they resolve their issue. It’s essentially just a penalty for players that have done nothing wrong.
Regarding the technical issues, that’s a very strange way of viewing it. I understand the idea that because the computer is in my possession that means I can take some proactive actions, but those solutions do not always apply and a lot of the time troubleshooting will be reactive to problems. Regardless, the idea that the penalty should be applied on the basis that you can take some proactive actions is the same as saying players should be penalized in cases where reactive actions need to be taken; it’s explicitly supporting penalties for players facing unexpected issues.
Yes it is often strictly a punishment for people kicked and is exactly of the reasons it was made for. Also people that leave after boss 1 do not get the deserter debuff regardless of time in the run making it needed in theatre of pains example as mentioned.
As it was made to prevent that exact case. Eg as a tank I que in and oh I dislike this group or instance kick me goes afk for 2 min till group kicks than instantly re ques. This is exactly what happened for a long time and will happen again with its removal.
The 15 min cool down makes it so getting to boss one to avoid the deserter debuff is worthwhile while making it more practical to get to and kill boss 1 va asking for a kick. Esp since the group “wasting” kicks like this makes there abilty to kick go down and kick timmer go up so hurts the ones in group a ton.
For the tech issue it is not a reactive thing to have the min specs which includes a ssd by the current specs. As per my post the main issue you mentioned crashing on load screen and longer load screens is a direct result of not having a ssd in many cases getting a ssd to let spec requirements is not reactive if a expected proactive action. Having a stable connection is also once more a expected thing in a online game as such it is not a reactive thing to ensure a stable connection that is a expected measure that should be taken before even considering playing the game. Unexpected issues do happen yes but the penalty in question was not added for that and in the end you where still kicked of the start. The cool down was added to prevent requeong right away if you where kicked. If you had tech issues you should be addressing them before requeing anyways so the penalty is completely fine even here to give you that time. As once it happens you vary much should be proactively fixing it not going into a new group to once more cause the same issue wasting there time.
Solutions should exist to solve problems as they currently are, not how they could possibly be at some hypothetical point in the future. The idea that tanks will operate in the same way they did in Wrath of the Lich King and Cataclysm, where Heroics and LFG dungeons were core parts of the game, and on the same scale is delusional. Progression paths have changed over the last 10 years. As it currently stands, this penalty is typically levied only against players facing some unexpected technical issues, essentially adding a hefty penalty onto players who have done nothing wrong.
The reason I’m not engaging on the technical aspects is because it is entirely irrelevant. For clarity, I am using an SSD and my internet connection is stable, WoW errors can still arise and packet loss can still happen. Again, as I said previously, this is not some frequent, all-encompassing issue where I’m constantly having these kinds of issues. It’s incredibly infrequent but has become something I’ve noticed more frequently with the launch of Shadowlands as I’ve been heroic spamming and noticing more people getting dropped at the start of dungeons.
Nothing shows they will not act the same way. In fact there is clear evidence that they will act the same way. Given we see players still doing exactly that leaving after the boss they want. As such people are still doing exactly what caused people to leave instances in the first place targeting set instances via the rfd. As such it is a vary reasonable and logical thought that people will once again do what was done in the past of the measures preventing them are removed or loosened up when they still are doing it within the confines of the system.
The part about them doing it on the same scale I never once claimed. It dosent need to be done on the same scale to be worth leaving in the system to counter that action. There is no reason to allow a unwanted action even if at a smaller scale. Esp when there is no downside. People with tech issues getting kicked having a cool down is not a downside in fact it’s a upside, as they should not be requeing right away they should be fixing that issue to prevent wasting more people’s time and requing more people to kick them increasing there kick timmer. A 15 min cool down is not a hefty penalty it is a rather reasonable cool down that lets you take a sec and look at why you where kicked right away and address it. It is not a punishment given to people so claiming you did nothing wrong is irrelevant. You qued recently as such you wait 15 min from the time you ques before going again this is just waiting for a cool down it’s not a punishment.
There is clear evidence that players will rarely act that way on a single boss, in a single instance, on the first week of a new expansion. The gearing ecosystem has changed. To think that the first week of an expansion is representative of player behaviour throughout and that player behaviour will be the same as it was when the system was first launched are not reasonable nor logical positions to hold.
The comment on scale does not need to be explicitly stated, it’s implied in your comparison to the issues from 10 years ago. If you want to compare it to those issues, you can; however, the problem is an issue of scale, not of action. No one cares if people occasionally leave a dungeon early, people care if it is a consistent action that acts as an impediment. It would be incredibly bad faith to try and claim that the issue with people leaving is simply a problem with people doing it, and not the frequency of it occurring.
The strawman that anyone who faces any technical issue must inherently have some deeper technical issue is not worth engaging, and I’m unsure why you keep harkening back to it. This was not what was initially brought up and I have repeatedly noted that this is not my circumstance. Unexpected technical issues happen, they are not necessarily indicative of some deeper issue.
Additionally, you have already acknowledged that the cooldown exists for the sole purpose of being a penalty. You cannot seriously be trying to both simultaneously defend the cooldown as a penalty for people leaving early and not a penalty for people who face some technical issue. You can’t have your cake and eat it too.
Never once have I claimed it was a penalty. I have expressed it as a way to prevent a action that is not inherently a penalty. That is a cool down. While I have said it is often strictly a punishment in the view of those kicked that dose not make it a penalty placed on them. It still in the end is a cool down. While it may feel to be a punishment and the player may view it as such which I did agree with in the end what matters is it is not a punishment or a penalty it is a cool down. As such no I am not having my cake and eating it as a cool down effects everyone equally. The group it targets it might be a punishment for to prevent that action but in the end it is a cool down.
I never once said you must have underlying tech issues that is something you made up. I said there is many things you can do on your end to control many issues which is true, never once said all issues are controllable or even Implyed that. None the less they should not be requeing in right away if a tech issue causes them to get kicked they should be looking into what happened and trying to fix. If they can’t fix they should be making sure there stable before requing the cool down dose stop you from requeing right away and is a good thing in this case.
People drop group after the boss they need all throughout the expansion it’s not a week one thing. Yes it’s greater inscale week one but I see it all the time people poping in for x boss and leaving if they don’t get what they want. Or after there quest is done in fact in was the vary reason instance quests had a final boss requirement added but even than dint help as people que in at the final boss the first time kill him than reque and leave mid instance in that case.
It is as much a issue of action as scale. As said there is no reason to better allow an action that is unwanted to happen when there is no downside to the measure preventing it. The cool down dose not have any downside you getting kicked for tech issues and not being able to instantly reque is not a downside of it. . That is the system working to make you spend a moment to find o it why you where kicked and address it before requing.
I vary much care if it’s every day or if it’s once a month that the tank or healer asks to be kicked since they don’t like the run. I never should have to waste my kick timer just since someone dosent like the run and removing the system that helps prevent that action is not a good idea.
You explicitly claimed it was a punishment, which is the act of applying a penalty. These two statements are not congruent.
Everything you have stated regarding technology has flowed from initial suggestions you gave me. Your attempt at help is appreciated, but it’s entirely irrelevant to the topic. It’s a consistent digression to something which is not important or relevant.
The difference between the two situations is:
(1) If you are trying to farm a specific item and leave, you are making a calculated time investment. This is typically outside of the dungeon cooldown, or the cooldown is an acceptable penalty during the farm.
(2) If you are removed from the group for some start-of-instance technical issue, such as a momentary disconnect, you immediately incur a 15 minute cooldown.
The effects of the penalty are only felt on one side of this equation. A person farming an item is signing up with the understanding that they are taking the penalty.
Not at all, and we can go through a pretty simple logical deduction to show this isn’t the case.
If a player leaves a group once, it’s not a problem, they will be replaced quickly.
If the person who leaves a group is a dps, it’s not a problem, dps are replaced in seconds.
If people are leaving a group consistently, it might be a problem, as people flooding in and out of a group halts gameplay.
It’s a punishment, but not a penalty.
It’s a cooldown, but not a downside of getting kicked.
These are not consistent statements you are making.
There is no such thing as “wasting” your kick timer. If you are using your kick option such that you are incurring the 2 hour lockout, this is very much a personal problem. The only way thig would be reasonably reached is if you were flagrantly abusing the vote to kick system. Even if you used it once or twice per run, this would not incur the lockout.
Given that heroics no longer have a daily lockout, that’s a non-issue, given that people can simply chain-queue for the one they’re actually after if that’s the case.