This people don't care about survival at all

[Númenórean-proudmoore]

what a wild world to live in where the meters decide what you play and not the playstyle and feel

[Aewendil-caelestrasz (Aewendil)]

@Númenórean-proudmoore

what a wild world to live in where the meters decide what you play and not the playstyle

It’s absolutely the playstyle that decides, which again is why Survival is not an option for the vast majority of people who play hunter.

[Númenórean-proudmoore]

yeah, whatever man
i’m done with this pointless, cyclical, petty conversation

[Yuraa-benediction]

sv damage is fine it doesnt need buffs

[Sangxin-akama]

As far as pve, the serpent sting buff is quite a large buff for aoe situations.

[Sangxin-akama]

SV is a god damn blast for the people that enjoy it. If people don’t, play the other 2 ranged specs… if you want to old rendition of ranged dot spec, there are many of those to chose from. Nothing else like MSV.

[Aewendil-caelestrasz (Aewendil)]

@Sangxin-akama

if you want to old rendition of ranged dot spec, there are many of those to chose from. Nothing else like MSV.

There are literally 0 other ranged weapon specs in the game but coincidentally there are 12 other melee specs you could play that aren’t survival.

[Taigertraps-darkspear]

And how many of them got a pet with hundreds of skins to choose from?

[Gizolfi-sentinels]

@Númenórean-proudmoore

literally no one asked for it

Hey now, I may not have made a post on the forums asking for a melee hunter spec but when I saw the Frostwolf and Thunderlord orcs in WoD I did think “wow, it’d be cool to be a melee guy with an animal companion”.

@Aewendil-caelestrasz

Blizzard literally took the spec I mained and removed it from the game

If you wanna go this route, Blood DPS DKs and metamorphosis demo locks say “hi”.

@Aewendil-caelestrasz

In an expansion where they also added another melee DPS class in a game that was already oversaturated with melee DPS specs.

I know we’re not supposed to lash out at each other, but this is such a terrible argument. Melee and ranged parity isn’t and should never be a thing. Yes, there are more melee concepts out there than ranged concepts. That’s just how thing are because of the insane variety you have with melee. The closest thing ranged can get to a new concept would be a tinker class, which can’t even be called a true “ranged” concept (on top of being something I’ve seen people ask for since around TBC and never gotten) or a class built around charging abilities like Wildstar’s Spellslingers.

@Aewendil-caelestrasz

Because if they are asking to keep melee survival, then they are actively campaigning to keep hunters in the poor state they currently are.

Melee survival existing hurts the hunter class.

This is patently false. Any flaws in MM and BM have nothing to do with SV. Blunders like Neltharax are not SV’s fault, either.

[Aewendil-caelestrasz (Aewendil)]

@Gizolfi-sentinels

This is patently false. Any flaws in MM and BM have nothing to do with SV.

Having 3 specs means more likelihood one of those specs is good. Couldn’t be simpler really.

[Gizolfi-sentinels]

@Aewendil-caelestrasz

Having 3 specs means more likelihood one of those specs is good.

That’s a terrible mindset to have (because the goal should be to make all specs good but play differently) on top of proving my point.

If BM and MM have issues, that is still not SV’s fault. I’d love to give suggestions on how to address them, but I don’t know what the problems with MM or BM are due to not playing either spec.

[Aewendil-caelestrasz (Aewendil)]

@Gizolfi-sentinels

That’s a terrible mindset to have (because the goal should be to make all specs good but play differently)

That is always the goal, but it’s not an achievable goal. As long as specs are different in any way, there will be disparities in performance.

Having 3 specs to choose from reduces the chance that all the specs are bad. There’s no opinion here, it’s just an objective fact.

[Gromgarr-azgalor]

@Gizolfi-sentinels

If you wanna go this route, Blood DPS DKs and metamorphosis demo locks say “hi”.

Looking at those specs popularity, they are doing just fine. BDKs might not be meta atm, but they are still being played. From that we can infer that the playerbase of these classes wasnt as appaled by these changes as hunter players have been from the SV changes. SV has been a virtually abandoned spec for hunters and was consistently the or at least one of the least played specs in the entire game.
Only exception ofc when they made it broken op in SL.

So judging by the impact that these changes had on the popularity of these specs, SV’s change is the singular worst class design decision among all of them.

[Sangxin-akama]

MSV is the only hybrid melee class. Nothing plays similar. You have MM for ranged weapon spec. What else do you want? It even has explosive shot now. Maybe blizz should give more dot options for people who want to throw on those rose colored glasses.

[Sangxin-akama]

SV can be good… its just harder to play. People need to stop crying and actually try the specs out.

[Skòl-nagrand]

@Aewendil-caelestrasz

Nobody ever plays it, because people play hunter because they want to fulfill the role of ranged DPS.

… yeah sure druid, literally nobody plays it

Broad incorrect statement is… incorrect.

@Aewendil-caelestrasz

there are 12 other melee specs you could play that aren’t survival

Not a single spec in the game plays like SV hunter.

@Felforsale-illidan

This is needlessly juvenile

Don’t mind Bepples, his entire existence is juvenile

[Ghorak-laughing-skull]

@Sangxin-akama

if you want to old rendition of ranged dot spec, there are many of those to chose from

Name one other spec in the game that relies on the use of a ranged weapon, has the option to use a pet, and revolves primarily around the use of DoTs.

@Gizolfi-sentinels

That’s just how thing are because of the insane variety you have with melee. The closest thing ranged can get to a new concept would be a tinker class, which can’t even be called a true “ranged” concept (on top of being something I’ve seen people ask for since around TBC and never gotten) or a class built around charging abilities like Wildstar’s Spellslingers

Your mindset towards ranged weapon archetypes is certainly a narrow one.

@Sangxin-akama

You have MM for ranged weapon spec. What else do you want? It even has explosive shot now.

See the answer above this one. Anyway, about your question…

Current MM, with the current, reworked, version of Explosive Shot plays nothing like old SV. Not even close.

What would I want? A ranged weapon based spec that is mobile, doesn’t focus on hardcasting, primarily focus on using abilities that deal damage over time, with gameplay revolving around managing them in various ways, and the option to use a pet(but not as a mandatory part of the spec). Old SV managed this as a base concept, with its own core theme of focusing on using ranged weapons, and not being a magician/spellcaster.

Anyone that says that this is what MM was like as well, and thus, motivated the rework, they really have no clue what each spec was like, or could be today.

@Sangxin-akama

SV can be good… its just harder to play. People need to stop crying and actually try the specs out

This isn’t why most hunters avoid the spec.

[Tanais-kilrogg]

Same, Big. Hopefully something, at least minor, may come up within the next couple weeks, but… that’s definitely just hope, rather than a historically-warranted expectation.

@Bigsexi-kiljaeden

I personally enjoy melee survival, there is something about it that makes my tickle, that being said, I do miss range survival. I am not sure what you mean by spitting in people’s faces

That's a Bepples thing, not aimed at you, don't worry.

He has in no uncertain terms called it his mission to interrupt any constructive discussion on Survival so long as it has a single melee ability. After all, the poor people continue to find fault in it (however minor when those faults are concrete, or uninformed and/or narrowminded where the faults noted are fundamental), it increases the chances of him feeling vindicated. Which takes priority, of course.

It’s like the flipside of someone asking for actual RSV gameplay and visuals to have been made available in Legion MM. Such would have resolved the problems, but then, how could one fill their need to prove that RSV always needed and will forever need to be separate! Better that the skills be lip-service only so we could prove the need for separation before even the slightest earnest attempt otherwise, never mind the class quality lost to fighting the devs’ ego war only with yet greater ego!

---

At any rate though…

• How did we get into this mess instead of simply adding (back) some well needed depth to RSV? Dev ego.
• Why does SV we remain in that mess? I can’t honestly blame that just on the devs at this point. (Thread derailment certainly plays a part.)

---

...

@Númenórean-proudmoore

you could help us design a cohesive melee spec instead of constantly spitting in our faces because 3 people on these forums (who mostly pvp btw, where it is actually fine, which is where that perspective comes from) insist it’s fine instead of constantly derailing threads and being snark/bitter

Imagine being haPpY with the frequently highest-ceiling PvP spec of the three. It’s ~mEleE~!!!

@Gizolfi-sentinels

@Aewendil-caelestrasz

Blizzard literally took the spec I mained and removed it from the game

If you wanna go this route, Blood DPS DKs and metamorphosis demo locks say “hi”.

You got me missing Frost DK tanking again.

• Big bursty AoE, ramping from stole movement/AA speed, good kiting potential, deliberate target management for stacking/shattering stacks for burst accretion, absurd funnel via Rune Blade with dual-wield and a fast main-hand, able to purposely take minor spell damage in advance to build resistance to it or to eat spells for resource, spell-copying, and the best anti-weak-hit defensive in the game (flat mitigation based on [ampable] Armor)…

[Tanais-kilrogg]

@Sangxin-akama

MSV is the only hybrid melee class. Nothing plays similar.

Yes to the second, but no to the first… in PvE. Enhance, Ret, and Unholy DK arguably have equally good downtime management in PvE — the sole benefit there of that “hybrid” nature — while others still (Feral, Outlaw, etc.) are frequently close enough that the it will frequently make no difference.

In PvP… sure, I can agree with that, as no one else can engage with ranged, only maintain uptime with it. (At least unless the kind of absurd 10.0.7 Ret 20y range stuff comes in.)

[Tanais-kilrogg]

@Númenórean-proudmoore

not really sure why melee automatically translates to poor state
are warriors in a poor state because they’re melee?
what about paladins?
maybe even rogues are in a poor state because they’re melee?

Even if they’re S-tier meta, melee would be bad, apparently.

@Aewendil-caelestrasz

Having 3 specs is better than 2. It increases the likelihood of one of those specs being good.

More importantly, the number of playstyles, features, and profiles, and the diversity therebetween increases the likelihood of your class having multiple powerful and/or satisfying options.

The more self-similar the specs, the less they add to that chance. A degree of cohesion is desirable. Actively avoiding otherwise useful points of diversity just because it appears on a different side of an oversimplified spectrum is not.

@Aewendil-caelestrasz

Nobody ever plays it, because people play hunter because they want to fulfill the role of ranged DPS.

I play Hunter because I want to feel like an outlander with a beast-like balance of cunning and ferocity (ideally also Tenacity, but we haven’t seen that since Deterrence) and user of tools, wildcraft, and the largest possible range of physical weapons.

That doesn’t require that I never have advantages for going in, else I’d never have been able to enjoy Hunter in Vanilla or TBC.