Probably having to sit through her lectures as she tries to break him gave him better insight into how her brain actually works?
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Literally how are they trying to justify her actions? So far, Tyrande is 100% right and the only hangups with her by her allies is âif you suddenly explode and cease to be then how the hell is there going to be justice?â and she even acknowledges the fact and agrees. Teldrassil is actually being handled a lot better in Shadowlands right now than it ever was in BFA, and the fact that there is so much more to come through the Night Fae story and the looming possibility of a time skip should ideally bring some measure of hope that there will be resolution.
Its one thing to be reasonably and justifiably pessimistic about Teldrassil, but letâs not jump the gun and start making wild claims as if theyâre undeniable fact.
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I donât think however that Anduinâs arguments should be what convinces her though.
They can shake her a bit, but if she truly believes that she is powerless, then despite what Anduin is saying she isnât the one with the power in that room. The Jailor has power. The Arbiter system she thinks damned her has power. She doesnât âhold the powerâ if that is her world view, and thus she should commit to her current path. Even if she hesitates atm.
Frankly, if the Jailor (and not the Arbiter, like she believes) is whoâs actually responsible for dragging her into the Maw (and her Primes were playing her), then that reveal should be what both shatters her world view and what gives her the proper catalyst to get on a redemptive path. Not the sleepover musings of Teen Heart-throb Young Brad Pitt here. No matter how dreamy and hope filled his blue eyes are lol!
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The problem is that the only thing to look forward to at this point is
- Saving Tyrande
or - Watching Tyrande die
Neither of those options are satisfying because if we save Tyrande, she still wonât have achieved anything of significance with her Night Warrior powers, she still hasnât seen justice done which was the entire point of the Night Warrior Ritual. I donât think I need to explain how option 2 would be unsatisfying.
On top of that, we didnât even save all Night Elf souls, we even had to destroy some of them and thatâs Sylvanas fault, so I really wouldnât be able to live with a justification of hers and letting her get away without a scratch.
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Not addressed in a way you consider proper =/= forgotten.
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I donât think itâs Anduinâs arguments thatâs having an effect on her. I think itâs more of her using him to reflect a bit deeper down than sheâs ever gone beforeâAnduin right now is only hitting soft spot after soft spot in hopes she does something drastic. He has never been this personally antagonistic to someone before, and while he has every right to be towards her (especially with all the torturing and everything), Anduin is a lot more calculated than most people realize.
If like you suggest that the Jailor is truly the mastermind behind everything (most likely the case given how simplified WoWâs writing is), Sylvanas will genuinely come to the conclusion on her own. Anduin right now is taunting a brick wall, while Sylvanas is too busy in her own head right now to really pay too much attention to what Anduin is saying. Otherwise, she would have turned the moment he shut her logic and viewpoint down in the very first Torghast cinematic between them.
I think youâre looking at it far to grand for that moment.
Nothing the Jailer can do will actually challenge her world view. Even if the Jailer decides to run her through, then her world view isnât really challenged, she just got betrayed again. Which, while that can lead to a heel realization, I personally find that way way more boring because the agency is out of her hands, and dropped into the hands of another overwhelming force she has no control over.
By the choice being to run Anduin through and thus completing the circle of being a monster just like Arthas (the one who for her caused all of this), it is a lot more thematically sound and such a situation would but the agency on Sylvanas.
Now I think this would be the limit to how far Anduin goes, everything else would need to be Sylvanas just having the heel realization on her own.
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The problem is that the only thing to look forward to at this point is
- Saving Tyrande
or- Watching Tyrande die
First of all: this is blatantly meant to mirror Illidan. This means Tyrande, in desperation, did something literally everyone warned her and anyone prior to her to never, ever do. She, like Illidan, at that point did not give a damn about the consequences on herself. In no way does the narrative point her out to be explicitly wrong about it. In fact, the narrative is going out of its way to justify her while giving her a way out. Weâre not trying to purge Tyrande of the Night Warrior, weâre trying to help her gain control of it so she can do what she set out. We literally give up the right to deal with Sylvanas ourselves to her, so we can focus on saving who we can.
On top of that, we didnât even save all Night Elf souls, we even had to destroy some of them and thatâs Sylvanas fault, so I wouldnât be able to live with a justification of hers and letting her get away without a scratch.
Thatâs⊠Thatâs exactly my point. Redemption doesnât mean Sylvanas is automatically pardoned for everything ever done, and good writing means she can be redeemed while answering for her crimes. Tyrande does not have to be denied her vengeance for her people in order for Sylvanas to be redeemed. Reminder that Nathanos genuinely taunted that killing him would only further his own goals, and is promptly denied said goals and left to the wayside. I sincerely doubt Danoseur would willingly crucify the character made into his own self insert and in the same breath claim Sylvanas âdid nothing wrongâ. That would take a level of delusion and a lack of self-awareness that would make Holinkaâs comment about Ashran being a success seem surprisingly inflectional.
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Considering she seems to blame the Arbiter for plunging her into the Maw, and that at least seems genuine, then the realization that the Jailor and Primes have been playing her for years ⊠and sheâs essentially turned herself of Arthas in response to a Convenient Lie ⊠should shatter her world view.
All she did, was in response to her hell in EoN. Her âseeing the world as it really isâ was in response to her hell in EoN. So, if it was never her hell ⊠then all she did was worthless to her, and her simply âseeing the world as someone else wanted her toâ. I want the Jailor to use and discard her, and for that reality to come out in the process. I want her to be put in the same position as the one sheâs placed so many of her own victims. I want her to be âthe arrow in the Jailorâs quiverâ ⊠and once that happens, THEN she might find a path to redemption.
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It would also open up her to finally having her own actual agency too.
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I should have specified, nothing the Jailer can do on his own, should challenge her world view.
Being forced to recognize that she has just became Arthas (by running Anduin thru with Shalamourne), and now she has her own Lich King Master should further rock her to the core. THEN she should make the final decision on if she will embrace this Dark Lady she walked into, or the Ranger-General everyone remembers she used to be.
Having the Jailer justâŠtoss her aside as I said would mean the decision of her defection (if it comes to that) is not hers, itâs the Jailers, and thus no actual agency for her.
Basically she should move to the path of redemption on her own, not be dropped on it by a convenient betrayal from her current Boss.
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Iâm failing to see how dramatic and literary irony robs her of agency here. Her entire point is she claims she lacks it completely, and Anduinâs is it was always there and she was the one robbing herself of it in the first place. The Jailor wouldnât be betraying her because by her own words he would be using tools fit to the situation. She wouldnât and shouldnât have that be her realizing heâs a jerk who was only ever using her for his gain.
The dramatic irony would be in place for her to face her own viewpoints and actions through her own introspection and come to the conclusion ultimately on her own. Neither Anduin or Zovaal will ever decide her fate for herâthat would completely undermine the entire narrative thatâs been dragged on for all this time, and would completely destroy the entire reason for Sylvanas working with Zovaal in the first place. Itâs not a âconvenient betrayalâ, itâs her own logic and viewpoint being thrown back into her face for the first time in her (un)life, and having the personal agency to take a step back and consider the fact that she might actually have been wrong.
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Thereâs a major difference between âredeemingâ Sylvanas and âjustifyingâ her actions. The cake they ate is with BfA and how despite the fact that the majority Horde followed Sylvanas unquestioningly, they were allowed to blame their complacence wholly on Sylvanas and walk out of it scott-free.
Sylvanas is a lost cause and no matter what she does, there is no way sheâs walking away from this expansion with her life intact, let alone, be absolved of punishment and rejoin the faction she betrayed.
Sheâs already been in the spotlight for 3 consecutive expansions, shewill be redeemed and die in the process, she has fulfilled her purpose in the narrative theyâre trying to tell. There is no benefit in keeping her around aside from keeping half the playerbase enflamed.
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The issue I would have is that if that introspection comes purely after the fact.
If sheâs dumped by the Jailer as expendable, and thatâs the cause of her to go âhuh maybe I was wrongâ that means the motivation of that introspection comes directly from the act of being expendable to the Jailer. She didnât realize it herself, she didnât make the decision to stand against the Jailer, she was dumped so her only option now is to oppose him.
Thatâs why I feel the introspection needs to come before the Jailer Dump. She has to start thinking now, realize she may have effed up and continue to think about that until sheâs given a final choice: embrace the darkness or stop.
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Just like her Forsaken could theoretically have agency now with it being thrown in their face they were nothing but tools to be discarded. Granted, that would require some tact beyond Calia to do with Blizz, but the theme is the same. They have theoretically the chance at agency now because theyâve cruelly had the truth thrust at them that they turned themselves into Scourge for the convenience of someone just using them. And yes, she used half truths and convenient lies to compel them to do that. She shaped their world view in so many ways, just as the Jailor has apparently shaped Sylvanasâ.
I donât see a problem subjecting her to the same treatment and lesson she subjected so many others to? Sheâs been long overdue for a load of bad Karma, and thematic irony can provide her a path towards that agency. Just as her betrayal and truths opened up the Forsaken to it. As Velonara said âWe will no longer be slaves to this tormentâ in 8.2.5. And perhaps Sylvie will be able to say the same soon.
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Ah, I see where youâre coming from now. In that case, I agree wholeheartedly.
I feel thatâs why itâs so important that the cinematics so far keep having her be visibly distraught about the whole thing. I think it implies sheâs known full well the way the game is being played, and thatâs why I think the dump would only serve to be the last piece of her introspection hitting homeâinstead of it alone being what does it.
Right now, she has long had the epiphany. She says just as much to Anduin in the first cutscene between them in the Tremaculum. Sheâs fully aware sheâs expendable. Itâs the punch of the dramatic irony that should, ideally, have her make up her mind rather than just have her say âwtf u lied to meâ and suddenly sheâs good again. Her making up a troubled mind thatâs been mulling over it all for a long time now vs âcurse your sudden yet inevitable betrayalâ, in other words. Does that make sense?
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Yes it does make sense. Thatâs how I hope this plays out.
I know how much people just want to kill her and be done with it. And honestly I would have been fine with that. But Iâd be lying if I didnât say I wanted there to be⊠you know an actually good story here.
Having her realize she was wrong and do something to try and atone is far more interesting to me. Especially in a game where our usual MO is to just murder the guy.
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The problem is not so much about whether a given character can be redeemed or not, itâs the fact that so many people are just sick of Sylvanus as a character, and they would rather see her just killed off rather than have a redemption that would probably seem both rushed and forced.
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Well we are, thatâs the point. Weâre trying to find a cure for her from the Night Warrior curse.
Good writing is nothing the writers are capable of, at all. They are absolutely going to justify Sylvanas and make her appear as ârightâ as we know Sylvanas can do no wrong.
Eh Iâll believe it when I see it. Iâd rather bet that they will not only redeem her, but justify her AND paint her as our savior, also let her story continue into further expansions as a protagonist.
In order for someone to actually be âredeemedâ she first has to admit she was wrong. And even that alone should not be enough. She actually needs to pay for her crimes. I personally wouldnt be opposed to have her spend a few millenia in Revendreth with Garrosh as her cellmate.