There is a lot wrong with Professions - - please fix and address for War Within

Gameplay Professions
1

Don’t force professions with work orders.

Stop forcing communication in the form of spamming trade chat.

Make getting knowledge points more enjoyable, especially for alt crafters.

Make all items BOE that can be sold on the AH.

Don’t make professions a multi month thing before it feels good to craft items. The nice thing in the bad old profession system was that a crafter could flesh out the profession they chose quicker and focus on the game.

Getting knowledge points weekly or be behind, having several routes to choose for an unknown result if anyone even wants that item, unknown result of how good it helps you out, just feels bad.

This system has a nice foundation but if Morgan Day only thinks that the issue with professions is the proc aspect of it then I have no reason to buy war within. [Referring to the q&a he had after blizzcon]

Professions don’t need to be something you sweat over, to spam if you are on a lower pop server, or on higher pop fighting over work that has crafters doing for free.

It’s a mess.

I’ve never seen you guys mess up anything as much as you did Professions.

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2

Some of these are valid opinions to hold, but there are a few short-sighted points as well.

It’s not forced, you can go enchanting and alchemy if you prefer to make money mainly through the AH, and the other 6 crafting professions have good or decent AH gold making potential as well.

Anything like a crafter board is just trade chat with extra steps. How would you decide who is at the top? The most recent person? Then it’s literally just trade chat that people have to go and seek out rather than having it conveniently in their chat box.

This would either completely kill the gear acquisition rate they want, or they would have to make crafted gear not scale beyond normal ilevel. They said one of their goals was to make crafting relevant for all players, and it’s been a great success in that regard.

The only way to create value in a digital economy, where all goods are the same, is to have products be scarce. Crafter A not being able to do the same things as Crafter B can allows them to exploit the niche that they chose because there’s less competition to drive down prices.

Being able to predict demand is like 90% of the skill in WoW economics. If someone went shoulders the first week of the expansion instead of non tier slots, or one of the powerful embellishment slots, that sounds like a them problem.

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Call me crazy, it’s been done before, but I don’t see Khronys’ point and your counter to be mutually exclusive. There are different ways to create the necessary scarcity to support the digital economy while still accelerating the rate of progress to craft the “highest” quality or tier craft.

I’ll admit that the design philosophy since Cata (I think it was Cata, maybe MoP, when all the original specializations went ka-blooey) of every crafter can craft everything is a limiting factor in the available options. But halving the required points per profession would have still accomplished creating scarcity while accelerating when people could craft at the highest levels.

Another way is to stop having ‘balance’ and the race to world first be the be all end all of design strategy. It limits design philosophy by capping really neat ideas because the team can’t figure out how to create balance in game environments of micro proportions. Should they even try?

Take Enchanting. Within the Insight of the Blue tab one of the subordinate wheels is Primal Extraction. 10 points in is Elemental Shatter that provides 10 minutes of combat stats in the outdoor world. But that is the end of the idea. Now consider some of the potential expansions on this idea:

  • Longer Elemental Shatter: Provides 30 minutes of combat stats in the outdoor world.

  • Enhanced Elemental Shatter: Provides an additional 25% bonus to the stats granted by Elemental Shatter. Can go to 50% by maxing out Insight of the Blue and Primal Extraction.

  • Empowered Elemental Shatter: Shattering a specific element increases your damage to those creatures by an additional 100%, but weakens your defenses against same by 50%. (Decay, Order, and Ire would need a rethink or exemption from this).

  • Attuned Elemental Shatter: You attune yourself to the shattered element increasing the probability of recovering Rousing Essence from appropriate creatures for the duration.

  • Crossing Elemental Shatter: Your Elemental Shatter now works in Dungeons and Raids at 50% duration and 50% effect.

  • Alchemical Elemental Shatter: Elemental Shatter no longer provides combat stats but lasts for 30 minutes. Instead, consuming potions, phials, and elixirs from the same elemental family increases their effects by 50%. Enchantments, Embellishments, and gear crafts from the same family have their effects increased by 10% for the duration.

As long as they design so a person could only achieve one or two of these added improvements to Elemental Shatter (make it a choice for completing the Primal Extraction wheel), and limit how often the player can change between them, Blizzard made more options for people to reflect their play style and class.

Yes, some people will take these options and crow about ‘the best for everyone.’ And some people will stupidly take that ‘best’ for granted the same way they do now. And the reality is that players who think through what they do and how they do it will come to different conclusions and select the added bonus that actually best fits them and their playstyle.

I think I lost my way somewhere in all of that so I’ll cut off for the time being.

ooops!

edit: hopefully fixed the formatting for the list.

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So removing the scarcity then. The easier you make it to earn profession knowledge, the more people will do it, and the more saturated with crafters the market will become, which will most often drive down prices for crafting services. Obviously you can’t make it too hard, or then the play just becomes to make 50 crafting alts or not bother with professions all together, but make it too easy and you can reach that saturation level.

IMO, for a system they intended to not add any points to over the entire expansion, taking a few months to completely, totally, and fully max out a profession tree is fine, especially since the later points aren’t as valuable as the early points. I don’t get nearly as many shoulder orders as I do boots orders. A crafter with 3 weeks of points can craft boots at exactly the same level I can. Are they going to be able to craft shoulder orders? No. Are they going to be able to compete with me in the high volume, very in demand boots market? Yes. (I just looked it up, I’ve done three 486 shoulder orders this entire season vs 87 toxic-thorn boots at max level, the difference in demand there is staggering.)

The gear acquisition rate isn’t really balanced around RWF, if anything we’ve moved away from RWF favored gearing with the week 1 mythic raid launch and catalyst at the start.

The entire point of the profession revamp was so that players could get combat bonuses without having a profession. Blizzard specifically removed direct player power from professions in like Legion (maybe wod?) or something, and I don’t think they want to make people do professions to make their character stronger.

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Using Enchanting was perhaps the wrong profession to demonstrate the higher point. Let me try this again.

Scarcity can be achieved by multiple methods, not simply the length of time it takes to reach a defined end state such as finishing filling three tiered KP wheels. Blizzard’s use of Specialization for DF professions is actually a case in point because the very name ‘Specialization’ is undone by the fact that every crafter can max out their points to craft everything at the highest rank. That is not Specialization by the definition of the word. By actually forcing a Specialization choice on players in their profession(s) Blizzard could achieve the same scarcity. Similarly, the fixed rate of acquisition of Sparks (of all kinds) already creates a limitation that is independent of the limitations from gaining knowledge points or alternative skill bonus(es).

Your point of not making it too fast is well taken, but could be alleviated through the following:

-Player chooses Armorsmith. Learns all armor plans. Filling out the wheel guarantees Armor crafts at R2.

-Player chooses Fine Armor. Filling out the wheel guarantees Belt, Gloves, and Bracers now guaranteed craft at R3 with chance for Inspiration to R4/R5.

-Player chooses Gloves. Filling out the wheel guarantees Gloves craft at R4. Chance to Inspire to R5.

-Adding Profession Equipment and a suitable complementary skill in Hammer Control or redesigned Specialty Smithing now allows guaranteed Gloves craft at R5 with Inspiration now providing other potential benefits. Won’t address those right now but it is an option.

Since a player can choose to truly become a specialized master of one armor piece, or generally improve all crafts but not to the highest quality, they achieve a similar scarcity since only the most obstreperous players would create nine blacksmiths to niche all armor possibilities and another six blacksmiths for weapons and tools.

Edit: Make the gaining of KP or whatever to fill out the specialization take 2-4 months and they’ve preserved scarcity while accelerating capping of profession skill.

Server, play time, and so forth also create huge differences in play experience. The only shoulders I’ve crafted were for my own characters, but I’ve crafted over 100 Primal Molten Gauntlets, mostly through public work orders, even though it is also a Tier slot.

I didn’t say the acquisition rate is balanced around RWF although there is some limitation. But portions of the design philosophy for professions are still based around not providing a crafted alternative to Raid gearing for the RWF. Also, Embellished items, especially crafted with the appropriate missive, were such a huge benefit that the nerf bat swung hard for 10.2 because they said crafted gear was overpowering and out prioritizing compared to raid drops. Even though Blizzard wanted crafting to be another end game pillar, they were willing to subordinate it to raiding when it did not work out the way they expected.

Although I was talking about Profession Specializations (Armorsmith, Dragonscale LW, Spellfire Tailor, etc.), your point about Profession Perks being removed in WoD is also pertinent, and the desire to allow all players to access all crafting outputs in DF. Although it is kind of an oops moment because Primal Extraction is a combat bonus that only Enchanters can get and use even though it is limited to the outside world.

Hopefully this makes more sense than my previous attempt.

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Exactly. Just for experiment, I leveled LW yesterday 1-100 and gathered 90points from treasures, 50 from books and few pvp recipes and made blue profession gear.
Same day, I was crafting guaranteed LW blue scales and hides at max. It would be the same if I wanted to go boots path or any other gear slot.

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I agree now and I’ve agreed throughout DF. But with so many players (yep, I’m one of them) being completionists, the total investment required to finish filling all wheels and pages just ends up becoming frustratingly tedious even at 8-9 months of effort. I have no issues with the points, the weekly limitations, and the resultant length of investment. But the totals are just too high especially as Hambrick rightly points out the last 30-90 points in almost all professions depending on the route one took are mostly unnecessary other than to finish them all (I feel like a Pokemon should jump out from that statement).

Edit: This is why I think Blizzard should cut the number of points, while retaining or accelerating point gain rate, for future expansions like this thread was started to recommend.

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It is to a point.

Mostly through said specializations that almost all need you to spam trade chat to a point, not all but most.

Then tweak it so it allows for gear acquisition at its own pace while crafting is set at a different level, with one being BOP another BOE.

None of that exists.
So the argument of creating value is null and void.
My want is for more boe items, not to nit pick what works in todays spamming LFW, X profession, and on bigger servers everyone is doing it for free lol

That doesn’t make professions feel good. ‘‘Oh damn, screwed up and now I’m back another X weeks or month plus to get to said thing people want’’ oh you get to it but then no one needs it. The argument doesn’t translate well into this current system in retail.

It is all just a rushed way to introduce an end game for professions per se and force ‘‘classic wow’’ elements into retail which from the looks of it, sucks bad as a whole.

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It’s really not. Every profession has BOE items you can sell on the AH, and almost all of them require fewer knowledge points than gear crafts.

So you want BOE gear that will have very little demand? I strongly prefer this system to the BOE items at the end of shadowlands.

You’re literally proving my point. It’s 12 months into the expansion, everyone can do everything, so there’s not a scarcity of crafters and prices have cratered.

It’s the same thing with investing in mats and patches. “Oh damn I screwed up and didn’t buy these herbs at X price, now I’ll never make gold on them” and then by the time they’re at prices that make sense for you, no one needs them. Being able to do basic things like think “ok well, people aren’t going to want the tier slots as much, and maybe I should look at wowhead to see what crafted gear people are going to want” should be rewarded.

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Few. Most requires someone to want said item. If you want to believe order system isn’t handcuffed to professions then not my problem.

Where did you get that from lol, if you think it’ll be less demand when lots still have no clue how to use the order system and don’t even know is there.

You missed my point lmao

Oh god you really missed my point.

Have fun discussing with yourself cause you sure as hell ain’t having a discussion with me since we are talking apples and oranges.

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Just because you haven’t discovered them doesn’t mean they don’t exist.

I’m a doomer on the average knowledge of most WoW players, and even I’d venture that the vast majority of players who want to spend gold on gear know that there’s an order system. To say they don’t know it’s there is almost certainly false. They may not understand certain intricacies or quirks of it, but the basic “I can put gear orders in at this place” is pretty common knowledge.

This point is funny, when you claim I’m not having a discussion in your next one.

It’s really not apples and oranges, it ultimately comes down to “I need to have what people want, when they want it” whether that’s profession knowledge or materials or the skill to defeat a raid boss/m+ dungeon and carry someone, the people who can do it before everyone else, or be able to sell at a higher price than they bought due to demand will always make more gold.

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I think that’s the problem, completionists.

You want to be able to do everything, which in the case of crafting will ruin it. Because you end up with a list of materials you can buy off the AH and you can knock it off in a half an hour.

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Like any term, while accurate, it includes a wide variety of player intents, desires, and styles.

I use completionists to refer to people that want to finish all possible aspects of a specific task or game function. In this case all Knowledge Points filled for my professions. Why? just because it is incomplete without that. It’s the exact same mentality for why I spent over 3,000 hours on FFVII figuring out how to find and max every materia. No gameplay advantage. In certain perspectives even against good gameplay. Still did it to meet my definition of complete.

If you assess the entire game population of completionists there are other people like me, there are people like you describe who I agree can be destructive to the WoW economy, and there are other people who have their own reasons for wanting to fill every wheel.

Also, reread at the idea I floated to Hambrick, it would actually limit what each crafter can do. Kind of hard to square that with your assertion that completionists want to be able to do everything when I am advocating the opposite.

And as a final thought for now, one does not need to be a completionist in order to create a shopping list to minimize the amount of time needed to do, I’m not sure what since you didn’t finish your thought. How many guides existed prior to launch day that gave shopping lists to quickly reach skill level 60 or 70? WoWHead, IcyVeins, WoWProfs, and at least two or three others that I know of. Do you call all of the people that blitzed professions on Day/Week 1 completionist too? Because that would seem to be the very behavior you are condemning as well.

So what are you calling a completionist? What behaviors are you actually against? And how does that tie into this thread discussion for desired changes to the profession system for War Within?

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There is nothing wrong with completionists and achievement hunters. The problem comes when they want to make things easier so that they can can complete everything or get everything in game.

There is only so much time so you have to trivialize achievements in order to get them all.

The problem specifically when it comes to crafting is all the things that you hate about the system make it profitable. Whether it’s a rep grind, complexity or time gating, these all make crafting more profitable. Removing these makes crafting just an achievement to knock off and trivializes them.

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I’m curious where you think you found any hate about what you identify in my posts.

I’ve rarely commented on rep grinds (first time in this thread now because it wasn’t brought up before), I actually enjoy most of them and DF’s have been pretty decent.

I proposed making something MORE complex because I like most types of complexity when it can result in better outcomes.

I said Blizzard should KEEP the time gate (weekly limitations).

What I’m arguing against is the total time required to max out KP because it:
a) dragged on too long,
b) the last 30-90 points are irrelevant on almost all professions.

Do you enjoy doing things that have no purpose or benefit other than to do them? While there will always be some of that in every part of the game, good design attempts to minimize game mandated wasted player time (this is different from a time gate). Similarly, when players complain about too much tedium and drudgery in a task, changes should happen to smooth that out so players feel satisfied (not necessarily happy although that is better) when completing or finishing that task.

Cutting the total amount of required KP, and therefor reducing the time required to complete filling out KP, would still require more time than Vanilla through Shadowlands where it was possible to reach max skill, which was all that mattered, on Day 1 if one was willing to drop enough gold. By adding KP they’ve delayed everyone to varying amounts, which is perfectly fine and generally good.

I’ll end it here because I can’t think of how to address your comments on speeding things up for the sake of speeding things up and profitability without sounding like a complete jerk. I’ll simply ask you to reread and think about every post I’ve made in this thread, and then reconsider whether you’ve reached the right conclusion about why I am asking for these changes.

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Here’s the thing. You can’t even be bothered to work on crafting for 15 to 30 minutes a week. You don’t like crafting. You want to nerf crafting because you don’t like it, so that everyone can do it easily.

Imagine if you tried that with PvP or Raiding so you could get the achievements.

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I kind of think you’re right, for the most part. But I’m not sure how you envision a system that doesn’t:

Is there really a difference between someone with 1 character who can do both Weapon/Armor-Smithing, vs someone with 2 characters where 1 does the Weapons, and another 1 does the Armor? I mean from the outside perspective of a buyer; if they placed an order for a weapon and an order for a piece of armor, and you have 1 character fulfill the weapon order, and another character fulfill the armor order, is that really much different than just having ‘1’ character fulfill both of the orders? Sure, specializations would still exist (in the beginning) because you could have a character focus on a separate path in their profession. But after X amount of time, when you’ve already filled out that specialization(and maybe some additional minor time gating to provide slight leeway for those that missed a few days over a few months span) is it really that important to restrict people to such extremes? Because I feel like you’d still end up in a similar situation of ‘one solo player, or even a group of 1-3 players’ are combining together to function as an omnipotent professioner who can ‘switch specializations’ by relogging onto a different character.
Like, let’s say you spend 10 hours on character 1 leveling up specialization A, and you spend 10 hours levleing up specialization B on character 2. Aside from the time ‘wasted’ on the overlap between the two characters(as in, both characters have to spend an hour doing ‘Intro to blacksmithing’- instead of just one character doing intro blacksmithing one time, and then jumping to different specs) I don’t think it’s much more than ‘trying to trick God’. You can say “Weellll, that’s good, as long as it’s obnoxiously tedious enough to prevent most people from doing that”. Which, ok, yeah maybe that sounds like that logically makes some sense. But then you remember that ‘logic’ is irrelevant to someone’s goals. They say a lot of profession points are essentially worthless. If something required 10000% more effort for a .001% increased reward, then logically no one would commit to the extra work, the juice isn’t worth the squeeze at that point. But completionism isn’t about being logical, actually it seems that over the years we’ve seen that completionism has been evolving into reaching levels of illogicalness that shouldn’t even be possible.
And that’s the thing about Economics: ‘2+2=4 works in a world of logic’, but it falls short when faced with a world filled with ‘X+Z=Chicken Tuesday Jacket’.

If something is ‘good’, it doesn’t have to be logical. But if that something is ‘bad’, there better be a logical reason why that is, or there will be Hell to pay.

19

I like most of these points. Can we add another QoL?

When someone posts a crafting order, it should pull the AH pricing for the items needed so they have a “suggested price +tip”

the orders posted with no ingredients and like 100 gold or something crazy are a joke.

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