Theory: The Cursed Origins of the Proudmoores with Wayne the Ancestral

Lore Story Forum
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There will be two (2) shadowlands spoilers

This is a wild theory, fair warning. Some shadowlands spoilers. Most of it is solid ground, some of it is messy as hell.

So got some ideas after watching the Dread Expanse video on the History of the Drust, check it out and help one of my favorite content creators out with a like! Part of this theory is based on his ideas of certain families in WoW being part of some weird “lineage” that binds them to certain primal forces.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YoLPyQEK37E&ab_channel=TheDreadExpanse

Basically the question I still have left at this point at the end of BFA is why are the Proudmoores so special?

House Stormsong’s ancestral founder was the first Tidesage. House Waycrest’s ancestral founder Arom Waycrest won the trust of the Thornspeakers and Athair and took down the Drust. House Ashvane are just the merchants (and apparently pirates).

This will be a Long Post.

Islands known as Kul Tiras:

They are southeast of Suramar, west of Uldaman, northeast of Zandalar.

They are on this map in the time of the Black Empire was N’zoth’s territory and where Chronicles places N’zoth, in the aftermath of the Aqir/Troll War was not inhabited by either the Amani nor Gurubashi, then part of the Kal’dorei Empire.

(due to narrative inconsistency that Nazjatar = Zin’Azshari, but we get to N’zoth’s location, which is southeast of the Well, from Nazjatar, which is west of the Well, either Blizzard messed up Zin’Azshari should’ve been along the eastern edge of the well or the Sundering somehow moved the entire city southeastward by sheer explosive force)

As Dread Expanse points out in the video, there is evidence that the Winterskorn War went as far as modern-day Kul Tiras, notably:

  1. The Life Preserver quest, where we help the red dragon Zallestrasza recover the remains of her cousin on orders of Alexstrasza, with a Dragonflayer clan shield https://wow.gamepedia.com/Life_Preserver

  2. In Shadowlands, Ysera claims to have once known Ulfar the High Thornspeaker https://wow.gamepedia.com/Ulfar's_Guidance

  3. The name of the “central” zone of Kul Tiras is called Tiragarde Sound, wherein “sound” means an inlet of the sea in a valley type area, and Tiragarde, like Tirisfal, likely comes from the Keeper Tyr, thus means Tyr’s Guard’s Sea, or as Dread Expanse points out garde means fortress or keep, so Tyr’s Sea Fortress.

  4. The name of the island itself, which Ulfar also calls Kul Tiras and refers to the humans as Kul Tirans; it is possible that this name is also a Tyr-derivative. Kul as a word means many different things in many different languages, ranging from Hawk to Coal to otherwise so this is harder to pinpoint.

The only time a red dragon would’ve died to a Dragonflayer vrykul and a vrykul druid would’ve made friends with Ysera in an area that was likely part of Tyr’s “dominion” post-Ordering would’ve been during the Winterskorn War after Tyr calls upon the Dragon Aspects for help (Chronicle 1 page 61). Thus, in all likelihood, the Drust were originally Tyr-alligned Vrykul who helped him and the Dragon Aspects in the Winterskorn War.

In the Blizzcon 2018 interview, Afrasiabi and Dawson talk about how the vrykul were both scattered due to the Sundering (ie settlements broke apart due to the Sundering) and were also a sea-faring race. Thus, this is still within defined canon.

Now, in Ulfar’s Guidance, and where I differ from Dread Expanse, Ysera mentions she knows Ulfar, a powerful druid. That is to say, when she met Ulfar (Winterskorn War) he was already a Druid. Given this was many years before the Kal’dorei Empire and thus Malfurion, we are faced with an issue of canon:

  • Either Malfurion is not the first druid, or

  • Malfurion is the first properly trained, life-centric Druid, given the Drust Druidry (Thornspeakers) are more Death-centric and use runes.

I believe the latter is the case, given the Drust are extremely strange among our WoW-standard-druids. In fact, in Ardenweald, at the end of the Covenant Campaign, the Winter Queen mentions how the Drust could’ve been protectors of the cycle, almost like in-reality members of Ardenweald. Thus Malfurion remains the first Druid, because he’s actually exclusively aligned to Life, whereas the Thornspeakers are “false” Druids in that they are aligned to Life and Death at the same time in terms of Cosmic Forces.

Moving on, we see that during the time of the Troll Empires we see zero settlement along the area that should correspond to Kul Tiras. This makes sense as we see zero Troll heritage in any part of Kul Tiras at all.

We do however see Night Elf heritage.

  1. The Lost Sailor’s Memorial uses a Night Elf statue asset that was used in the Tomb of Sargeras, and curiously has a prayer to the White Lady and Blue Child, something not seen at any other point in the narrative https://wow.gamepedia.com/Lost_Sailors'_Memorial

  2. The key to the Shrine of the Storm, that creates as arcane pathway over the Kraken-infested waters to enter the Shrine, is held in a Moonwell (this model is only used afaik in the Vault of the Wardens instance) and Tideguard Victoria remarks that the Rod of Tides can deem people worthy or unworthy to wield it, which is not unlike how Elune chooses her champions and can even smite people who transgress her, like in the Tomb of Sargeras if you have Xal’atath. https://wow.gamepedia.com/Oathbound https://wow.zamimg.com/uploads/screenshots/normal/786008-oathbound.jpg https://i.imgur.com/5swvJ1N.png

  3. The quest Strange Discovery finds a very old Night Elf ring in Mechagon that the NPC exclaims makes the history of the island even more complicated https://wow.gamepedia.com/Strange_Discovery

  4. And lastly, as this is the last historical period where people (possibly) live here that aren’t humans, we have the Twist the Knife quest where Xal’atath mentions that the naga (former night elves) had planned to summon their storm in a place that echoes with ancient power and had countless names over the ages, and today is called the Precipice of Oblivion, which is where the Kraken-head main temple of the Shrine of the Storm is, where the Shrine of Shadow is, and where the Tendril of Corruption is. So the names in question would’ve been: N’zoth name, Night Elf name, Vrykul name, and now Human name. https://wow.gamepedia.com/Twist_the_Knife https://wow.gamepedia.com/Precipice_of_Oblivion https://wow.gamepedia.com/Storm's_End_(subzone) https://wow.gamepedia.com/Shrine_of_Shadows https://wow.gamepedia.com/Tendril_of_Corruption

Now 2700 years BDP we have the empire of Arathor forming. This specific heritage is really only seen in the subzone Arathor’s Embrace in the area above/southeast of Gol Koval. The Empire fell apart a bit after King Thoradin, and the Kingdom of Gilneas was formed. After the Kingdom of Gilneas was formed, one sailor (future founder of the Stormsongs) began getting whispers.

Now according to Legends of the Tidesages https://wow.gamepedia.com/Legends_of_the_Tidesages first came the whispers from the sea that gave him powers to control fish and water, then others began hearing the whispers, and then they gained control of the winds and currents, and then the ability to make their hulls impenetrable.

These three abilities are sustained in the Tidesage Council, where we see Wavespeaker Reid (Wavespeakers are the oldest magic as per Brother Pike), Galecaller Faye (titled Master of the Tempest, but there’s a Windspeaker who is the Disciple of the Wind), and Brother Ironhull (Master of the Hull, but Runecarver Sorn is Disciple of the Hull).

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Tidesage_Council

What is interesting is this last point about blessing the Hull in a manner that involves runes, because it is depicted in the murals of the Shrine of the Storm, and is seen in-game exactly like the mural in the Shrine of the Storm in the Shrine of the Shadows area of the instance, which at the end of the Stormsong Valley storyline, Brother Pike says his powers are strongest in the Shrine of Shadows, and uses water-arcane magic that launches towards the kraken-eyes in the floor circle to try to find the missing fleet.

'https://wow.gamepedia.com/File:Shrine_of_The_Storm_texture_kit_-_mural_2.jpg

'https://wow.gamepedia.com/File:Shrine_of_Shadows_background.png

'https://wow.gamepedia.com/File:Shrine_of_Shadows_floor_texture.jpg

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Shrine_of_the_Storm:_Whispers_Below

Specifically, the mural shows a Tidesage blessing a ship with runes through what we see in-game is moonlight seeping through the cave. Moonlight. Specifically.

Rather strangely, he says that the fate of the fleet lies with the Proudmoores now; except Jaina is now in Fate’s End Island, which is connected to Thros, but can only be arrived at by the Tidesages. Hmm.

Now on the other end of the island, also 2700 years BDP, we have Arom Waycrest leading the war against the Drust for these proto-Kultirans with the newly formed Order of Embers and the help of the Thornspeakers and Athair, whose life he saved from the Drust.

Interestingly the Order of Embers discovered that four things are strong against the Drust:

  • Rowan wood, which the first Kul Tirans fresh off the boat from Gilneas were familiar with but Lucille Waycrest says doesn’t grow in Drustvar

  • Worgsbane, that she doesn’t know what it is.

  • Alchemical Fire

  • Weapons of silver

In prior speculation I pointed out how the only reference of silver being important is with the Chalice of Elune, and how Arom would’ve had Gilnean plants at hand, and thus Worgsbane is probably Wolfsbane, and Rowan wood is also possibly some Gilnean tree.

https://www.reddit.com/r/warcraftlore/comments/higho3/theory_on_helya_as_the_tidemother/

(side note/fun fact, recall the Gilneans have a “Harvest Witch” tradition, thus it is possible Kul Tiran Druidy is a combination of Drust Vrykul Druidry via the Thornspeakers and also remnants of Gilnean Harvest Witches; ergo why the Drustvarians have paranoia about “witches” in the first place perhaps)

Fast forward, Gorak Tul loses, ends up in Thros, evil plot ooga booga, we defeat Gorak Tul’s vessel in the Waycrest Manor dungeon at the end of the Drustvar Leveling storyline and he gets sent back to Thros, except when we go to Thros to rescue Jaina, Gorak Tul has a very strange attitude towards her.

Specifically, the Servant of Thros says “Proudmoore’s daughter is ours, interloper!”, and another Thros denizen says “You will never take our prize!” (thus Jaina is a prize of some sort, unique), and lastly Gorak Tul yells “Thros will consume you all! At last I will claim vengeance!”

'https://wow.gamepedia.com/Thros,the_Blighted_Lands(quest)

Now why exactly does Gorak Tul think keeping Jaina is a prize and satisfies some vengeance? This is never explained.

Then shortly after, the end of Kul Tiras storyline cinematic has Katherine Proudmoore saying that the pendant Daelin had was the “heart of the Kul Tiran fleet for generations”, and that she thought she could call the fleet home as Daelin did, but she couldn’t. Jaina, however, can.

Jaina can, through the Proudmoore pendant of the Lord Admiral, undo a Tidesage-created storm that another Tidesage could not do. She does this as the pendant glows with a white light. Not yellow, like holy magic, nor purple like her usual arcane magic, not blue like her water/ice magic, but white. Like moonlight. Like the moonlight that the whispers of the sea taught the Tidesages to use to bless the hulls of their ship so they become impenetrable.

What also isn’t adding up is that according to the description of the Proudmoore Admirality, the Proudmoore family has only been in Proudmoore Keep for DECADES. Not centuries. Not 2700 years. Only DECADES have they been in Proudmoore Keep in Boralus.

The Proudmoores have however been in charge of Kul Tiras for “centuries”, supported by the Waycrests especially, as per Taelia explaining in A Nation Divided. At the same time, Taelia also says the four Houses were only formally unified under Daelin Proudmoore.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Proudmoore_Admiralty#Description

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v39utRvCdik&ab_channel=ZaFrostPet

So where were the Proudmoores before?

The answer I have arrived at is: The Lost Estate in Stormsong Valley. You see, Wayne the Ancestral, who appears as a ghost to the Alliance and a forsaken to the Horde, who is in a fallen mansion with various paintings of mages, whose mansion is at the edge of the Shrine of the Storm in the Precipice of Oblivion, which Xal’atath says is a place of ancient power that had many names, and whose mansion is in front of a statue that looks just like Daelin Proudmoore’s in Boralus (if covered in seaweed and decrepit), talks about the history of the Shrine from the early days.

He says that the terror beneath the waves (N’zoth) seeks to destroy his family, his house and his legacy. He mentions how he lived opulently in the shadow of the great fortress (the shrine). Rather PROUD wouldn’t you say? And he did live in a marshy area, a moor.

He mentions how the Tidesages eventually created Purifying Effigies to counteract the corruption of the abyssal idols (this is depicted in another shrine of the storm mural, Tidesages cleansing corruption with water), and also incense to do the same, as well as Tidesage-blessed holy water.

He asks us to kill a cursed captain that was under him long ago (so he was a leader).

He mentions how a maiden was corrupted and became the Sirens we see in Kul Tiras (ergo they’re basically N’zoth Kul Tirans made as the Naga were).

Eventually we defeat a Voidborne Ascendant after Wayne mentions that he and his comrades delved deeper seeking knowledge until they summoned this aberration, who the NPC box describes as “Progenitor. Destroyer. Unmaker.”

The time period he is describing (mentioning the development of Tidesage Rituals as they were happening, as if he was there) means Wayne has to be a 2700 year old ghost.

https://imgur.com/BtTIPXK

'https://wow.gamepedia.com/File:Lost_Estate.jpg

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Ruin_Has_Come

'https://wow.gamepedia.com/File:ShrineOfStormsThirdMural.png

The statue that strongly resembles Daelin Proudmoore yet clearly could not be as this Estate has been visibly abandoned save for this ancient ghost. So where did this mysterious wealthy family that was evidently the only non-Tidesages living in the area of the Shrine of the Storm proper that had a statue of an admiral to honor someone right in front of their estate?

The only thing that explains why both Gorak Tul wants vengeance on the Proudmoores specifically AND why Brother Pike says that the fleet can only be rescued from a Tidesage storm by a Proudmoore AND why Katherine (married a Proudmoore, not of Proudmoore blood) could not call home the fleet though she was willing and had the pendant is if Jaina’s bloodline is inherently tied to the foundation myths of Kul Tiras and of the Tidesages.

Thus, Wayne the Ancestral is Jaina’s ancestor.

So pre 16000 years BDP:

  • N’zoth controls the area

  • Titans order everything

  • Tyr and some of his stormforged/vrykul along with the aspects fight in the Winterskorn War

Post 16000 years BDP and pre 2700 BDP

  • Kal’dorei settle along the northern parts of today Kul Tiras (including mechagon)

Post 2700 BDP after the Troll Wars up until recent history

  • Gilnean sailors are led by who would become the future Lord Stormsong to Kul Tiras

  • Stormsongs establish the Tidemother religion in what is now Shrine of the Storm, was possibly previously a Night Elven Elune Temple thing, and before that part of N’zoth’s dominion.

  • Arom Waycrest leads the war against the Drust with the help of the Thornspeakers and Athair.

  • Wayne the Ancestral (Proudmoore) lives in an opulent estate near the Tidesages, is powerful and commands captains, supported by the Waycrests.

  • Wayne is empowered by the Tidesages in some magical way via the Pendant

  • This dooms his family and everyone he loves due to N’zoth’s corruption.

  • His family abandons this opulent estate for Boralus

  • Only in the past few generations do the Proudmoores live in Proudmoore Keep as per faction description.

  • Ashvanes rise in power via trading (and piracy).

  • Daelin Proudmoore unifies the four major houses of Kul Tiras (A Nation Divided cinematic)

  • Daelin dies at Theramore, Houses fall apart, we come in, BFA, etc.

Hope you enjoyed this :smiley:

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I read all that. Trust me. Thanks for the lore!

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Thanks :smiley: appreciate it

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So, we have “peculiar” origins for Wrynns (Goldrinn involved?), for Proudmoores, and Menethils (something-something Halls of Reflections, Yogg-Saron – Lich King connection). I wonder where it’s going.

Thanks for the effort.

gl hf

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Unless I’m misunderstanding your timeline, 2700 years is waaay more than long enough for the Genghis Khan effect to kick in. This guy is probably related to every single Kul’Tiran.

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I mean sure, anyone who is White or Mixed European in 2020 is descended of Charlemagne due to Pedigree Collapse, and yet we still have a specific Royal Family who claims closest descent to the dude :stuck_out_tongue:

Trying to apply IRL genealogical realities to WoW is pointless imo, it’s the same thing with “Why are there different phenotypes among humans”. It’s because different Stormforged made by the pseudo-alive Titanic Keepers in magical laboratories were made of different metals and thus turned into different skin tones after the Lovecraftian Old God did his bibidee bobidee boo curse of flesh, because that’s where humans come from in-game, not from monkeys.

So yeah 2700 years have passed and only Lucille Waycrest, Brannon Stormsong, and Jaina Proudmoore are the primary heirs to their respective houses :stuck_out_tongue:

Hopefully the First Ones? Lord knows what is going on in the Story Team’s minds at this point.

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