The tragedy of the forsaken - but in it, hope

I have a hypothesis!
So - a sentiment I’ve felt is that forsaken are supposed to be evil - that that’s their whole thing. Evil, heartless, cruel - for no discernable reason other than to do so. Thus, when there are forsaken npcs that act otherwise - there appears to be confusion.

My thinking is that we’re merely watching a civilization slowly come out of it’s shared trauma - and that this trauma is responsible for the initial cruelty and hatred that saturated their culture for decades.

Going through classic, the forsaken take an almost morbid glee in inflicting suffering upon other humans. Some even want to inflict the same plague they perished from unto others, to bring all to their level of existence.

And…I don’t know - I’m hardly a psychologist but that does sound like a rather textbook response to a highly traumatic event - such as…well, dying horrifically, being raised, and then committing more horrific acts. You’ve essentially got an entire population of people that experienced all of this - and for years went without aid, without help. Just from my own life experiences…I feel like there’s usually two directions people go to. One either tries to avoid the original trauma and to an extent protect others from it, or they end up endeavoring to share said trauma out of a need to either expel pent up emotion, or to be understood.

Thinking about people like Lilian Voss…I feel like she took the former route. She didn’t take out her anger on the living so much as those who had done her, and others like her, wrong. She holds no hatred or jealousy for the living, as some have turned to - but she holds no hatred for her own kind either. In a way she watches out for them in a way Sylvanas never could.

I feel as though Calia is an example of an undead with a support structure - which…may be infuriating for some forsaken. Calia was raised in an environment where she wasn’t shamed, and didn’t have to experience the horrors of being part of the scourge. She’s…simply Calia. Becoming undead has it’s own trauma’s for sure, but simply being undead does not create what we’ll call the Sylvanas mindset.

I would summarize this as a general envy for what the living haven’t had to experience - and an inability to rationalize the pain of their own experiences, thus leading to a projection of that pain onto others, to various extents. In the case of some, they take the inhumane things done unto them and commit them themselves, perhaps in the effort to gain some control over their own situations. Some characters I would lump under this mindset are: Apothacary Putress, Sylvanas Windrunner, Deathguard Samsa, and others.

What we’re seeing recently though is a change in the mindset of the world. I imagine as things have gone on there’s been progress in living/forsaken relations - such as the gathering at Arathi. One of the biggest wrongs inflicted upon them all was the fact that they were made out to the aggressors after being raised, even though they were still suffering from the things done to them.

Does this excuse the horrific deeds carried out by many forsaken? No. I feel that it puts it in context however, and reframes that the solution to the Sylvanas Mindset is a program of outreach, instead of outright extermination.

Frankly I’m hoping to see more empathetic undead. I feel like these characters have the capacity for an immense amount of empathy and understanding - they’ve gone through more than most on Azeroth, and frankly could end up being emotional anchors for a lot of people.

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As a NE, I will never feel sorry for the Forsaken. They where part of the army that invaded my home lands, slew my people, burned our homes and capital city and then raised our fallen into undeath. The only thing I want to give them is the return to the hell they belong in!

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Alliance still need to apologize for how they shunned the forsaken. I’m not asking for reparations, just a simple “we’re sorry for leaving you to rot”

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Most of the undead in Vanilla were plague victims who, with some exceptions, acted as a mindless mob. Those who were purposely raised from the dead seem different from the ones who transformed from human to scourge. Had they not been there would be no Forsaken civilization in Undercity, and they wouldn’t have integrated into the Horde.

I think their hostility is as much the fault of the Humans and allies not discerning between the scourge and the forsaken, as it is the Forsaken themselves.

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All I have to say is that this is an interesting post and I appreciate you.

This is kind of a really big tangent, but I always contextualize this song as being about the Forsaken. It’s not, so it doesn’t fit perfectly, but it’s close enough where it kind of works, I think? Lyrics in the description if it’s not your kind of music.

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Yet me draw a picture. We are in the middle of a freaking zombie apocalypse where the dead are coming back and serving a former prince within the Alliance that has no turned it’s most dangerous enemy it has faced. Now your uncle Jack, who you saw die just last week returns and tells you he is “different” than all the other undead running around killing and eating the living. Are you honestly going to believe him or are you going to pick up a pick fork and defend yourself?

There really does - and I feel like Anduin and Genn nearly had that in the bag before Sylvie caused a ruckus.

And now…we’ve got even more of an issue. Teldrassil…darkshore…goodness all of that. The world’s outlook on the forsaken was already grim - but sylvanas cemented their place as the ghouls of the world.

how in the heck would you change that?

If he’s able to speak coherently and shows no sign of aggression, why would I attack? I would be on my guard but I’m not about to lash out and kill my relative.

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You act like there was a survey done during that times to determine categorized the undead and how they behaved. We both know you would have picked up the pick fork because of a rational fear of what is going on around you and suddenly now your life is facing that same threat.

Oh I’m sure it’s far too late after what has transpired but hopefully Calia can help with the healing process.

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I am sure she can help the Forsaken come to terms with what was done to them but there is no amount of PR works she can do that will ever change the image of what many see the Forsaken as.

I mean frankly, if a zombie started talking, asking for help - even if it was trying to kill me, I think I’d find a way to trap it instead of killing it, especially if it was someone I knew.

We know, though, that most of the hatred against the forsaken was more religiously motivated than personal. undeath went against the teachings of the church of the light, and so it needed to be extinquished.

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All forsakens are unholy beasts and deserves to die.

Yes, but until my zombie uncle shows aggression, I’m willing to listen. I don’t disagree that the situation made it difficult for the Alliance, but it still feels like not enough effort was made to reach out to the forsaken.

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I doubt that, sure it spawned groups like the Scarlet Crusade but let’s not forget the first action of the “forsaken” after being freed was to join forces with the remnants of the Lorderon army to retake Lorderon, only to them stab them in the back killing them so they could take the city for themselves. Then develop biological weapons to be used against the living…

I bet the vast majority of the hostility was caused by fear. Even with the Forsaken freed (and you can thank Illidian for that by the way) there was still a massive undead army waging war upon the survivors.

Do…you forget that the forsaken joined GARITHOS? Who was pretty clear that he’d kill them all afterwards anyways?

I think the act or process of becoming Forsaken in itself has some effect on the beings forced to undergo it. Not all of them, but some, perhaps even most. The way that characters like Delaryn and even Sylvanas heel-turned so rapidly cannot, I think, purely be explained away by shared trauma, they are being infused with negative energy (shadow/void) in some way on top of that. It’s almost like how Marvel super soldier serum amplifies the worst tendencies of your nature.

This is not to diminish them as victims, but it may very well be that those evil tendencies many of the race are rooted not just in having a particularly bad day but also being magically corrupted/hardened.

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That’s a fair point to make - though it’s also Canon that recently raised forsaken are…confused. Oftentimes the last thing on their minds before death influences what they feel upon being raised - and in Delaryn’s case…her last thought was that she’d been betrayed. Elune had abandoned them - forsaken them.

Sylvanas’s speech may have done even more to turn her - going rather in depth about the futility of it all.

Any which way, i’d love to see it explored. :slight_smile:

I think it’s a possibility that one would pick up the pitchfork and immediately try to get rid of the perceived threat.

I also think it’s totally within reason for someone to be incredibly wary and defensive, but not instantly aggressive. Pick up the pitchfork, tell the thing that if it’s really your Uncle, then listen to you and leave and never come back.

If it’s clearly sentient and capable of speech and isn’t instantly aggressive to you, there’s plenty of room for reactions like that 2nd one. I do agree that very few would jump straight to “oh, okay, you’re my Uncle. You can stay here. Let’s hang out” though.

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