I had this posted in a different thread, but because the title of that thread was pretty incendiary (it demeaned people who were pro-Sylvanas), and I felt the discussion being had was worthwhile on the forums; I figured I would create my own post on the subject to continue the discussion elsewhere regarding Sylvanas.
Frankly, I would not mind if she survived. Just because I personally believe she should die doesn’t mean that she should. I am not one of the authors of this game, though I do enjoy writing stories related to Warcraft as a roleplayer.
Some people say the authors read the forums. If they truly do read the forums I would make a suggestion. That suggestion would be that rather than killing her off as a loot-pinata, they consider merely ending her tenure as Warchief; and shift her to becoming an independent NPC which perhaps a player had to earn rep with in a future expansion (with an alternative group perhaps being run by Calia or another collective such as the Argent Crusade and Ebon Blade were in Wrath).
Mind you I only suggest this because I feel like if you (the author) believe that there is a story worth telling where it relates to Sylvanas Windrunner, you should proceed with it, irrespective of anyone else’s viewpoint. We don’t need to know the story before it’s revealed, but at least knowing there is a plan with regard to Sylvanas in the works would reduce the temperature of the forums.
One of the problems I see at the moment that is damaging the story, is that Sylvanas is very absent from events aside from a few cameos after the Teledrassil incident. Nathanos is front and center, but she’s often missing for great lengths and we have no idea why. Characters might not know why, but Players should have some of the story better revealed so it’s not too much of a story overload later.
Understand I do not want your creative license to be compromised. But at the same time, I feel like if feedback is desired, I would consider offering more information on the scenario playing out, as well as more alternatives for players who have absolutely no desire to work with her period. I base this premise off of a couple of factors I hope that you will at the least consider since they do have some standing in the lore.
- Issue #1: “Sylvanas the Chosen One?”
This deals with the “Sylvanas is Kerrigan”, “N’zoth is Amon” scenario that often comes up on the forums. Alright. Lets assume this is the case, and you as authors want this to be her great moment of redemption.
So let’s hypothetically say Sylvanas is conducting 4d-Chess and is actually doing all of this for a legitimate reason that is part of a much larger plan to best the big bad, ala Manticore from City of Heroes. That’s fine. But I would recommend having her first either removed or leave the Warchief role, if this is to be her story; for a couple reasons.
Also in advance to head off the inevitable vilification that seems to always crop up when one discusses this subject, I will preface this by saying the reasons I offer this argument up; have nothing to do with her gender, but everything to do with her past .
Sylvanas has a lot of baggage in her past that should never be discounted or forgotten by either side. To be sure, some spirits may of suggested that Vol’jin make her the Warchief. But a key thing to remember here is that this doesn’t actually make these as of yet unknown spirits right, or even entities that are actually on the Horde’s side. Players should keep this in mind.
It also is poor stuff if the leader of any faction is the “super-hero” as where does that leave the other faction? Feeling strung along and like a side-kick at best, and marginalized and unimportant at worst.
- Issue #2: “The Horde’s Flavor, Rotted?”
It feels like the Horde’s ‘theme’ has been replaced by the Forsaken’s narrative at times. Thus I’d wager it’s a fair sentiment to consider, when suggesting that the players of Horde races that are not Blood Elves or Undead; are rather off-put by this development and are tired of being labeled the evil faction. I think you did good in creating some ‘options’ and choices in the Saurfang Quests that showcase the lack of unity in various quests.
But where does this lead? Surely not to a unity of factions or betrayal / defection quests. Please remember that in such a incident you would be allowing Blood Elves to go Alliance and Humans Horde. If it was allowed, make no mistake; there would be massive exoduses overnight.
Honestly speaking, I can’t see such a massive undertaking being done. I mean it makes sense logically, but logistically is Blizzard really ready to do such a thing? I am doubtful, because Mists of Pandaria was the best time to do this. Not saying you couldn’t do it, but ‘would’ you really do it?
In Classic the dual faction system was done well in that the tentative peace showcased war-dogs and aggressors on both sides, be it the Warsong or the Stormpike Guard. That was a true case of shades of gray and that is why Classic was so well loved. It got it right. Neither side was truly good, and neither side was truly evil.
Contrasting that to the present, the Horde has been essentially strong armed into an antagonists role. As a long time Horde player there are days I feel like my character were hijacked and lobotomized as they would never agree to any of this.
By diminishing player agency or interest for the sake of plot expediency, the fabric and flavor of the Horde has been damaged significantly. At the moment, Thrall is likely the only character who could correct this course suitably, and in a manner players would accept.
I’ll also reiterate that this has zilch to do with his gender. This may have something to do with the fact that Thrall is Metzen’s flagship character, and many players feel like his lore isn’t being properly respected at times.
Consider that from the start, when prior authors wrote the Forsaken narrative, it was always said that the Forsaken were the odd-ducks of the Horde that cared little for their allies and used them.
Ergo, since Vanilla she’s never been in any sort of position of trust. She could have showed a different more pragmatic side to herself when she became Warchief (a reverse of Garrosh) but instead she went unhinged in the Arathi Highlands, and at Teledrassil which has probably tainted the character with the ‘too much done’, similar to Jean Grey and the Dark Phoenix Saga where she (Jean) eradicated a entire star system to feed the Phoenix.
This casual disregard which Sylvanas and Nathanos hold for the player faction they leads showcases again why the characters simply do not mesh well with the Horde. Sylvanas is not an exemplar you rally behind, she’s a torturous and divisive force that players were tired of already 11 years ago when she got away with Wrathgate with relatively little consequences. That her role in it was confirmed, literally makes players ask “Why is she still alive”?
- Issue #3: “Why should we help Sylvanas?”
Shifting dialogue back to Sylvanas now, let’s discuss her place as a ‘anti-hero’. If the story is going to make sense and be one that is enjoyed by the playerbase, then I submit that ‘any’ threat that is faced, is going to have to be a threat that rivals or exceeds the Legion, and something either in story or in questing needs to be added so as to excuse the many crimes she’s committed already.
To Wit: “Why would Human Paladin help the Banshee Queen?”
Human Paladin might be a borderline meme on par with Florida Man where it relates to the WoW forums, but it’s also a good metric to guide why an otherwise Lawful Good character would support a character that thus far seems to be Chaotic Evil in her alignment.
Sylvanas needs to become relatable and show actual regret for her past actions. The problem herein is if we judge the way her character was built, I do not think she would ever apologize for her actions. Do you? I think you can see the quandary here.
Sylvanas would need to change as a character for this to work, and it couldn’t be a sudden change or it would feel too forced. I mean she’s been pretty closed off since the day that she was reanimated, but it is evident she has a sentimental side. Showcasing it might not be a bad thing. I just don’t know if it’s still viable due to her slaughter of the Desolate Council and the Teledrassil incident.
- Issue #4: Sylvanas vs. N’zoth, Worth it?
The next issue I see with Sylvanas is the Kael’thas / Illidan situation. Are other characters being thrown away, or sacrificed on the Sylvanas altar to save an otherwise damaged and irredeemable character?
I think this is why a lot of players feel that her killing N’zoth ala Kerrigan / Amon, would be a mistake. True you could shift it into a battle against the Void Lords, but I would ask this. Why are we in a hurry to fight the biggest bads in creation?
Consider that relegating N’zoth to a final boss in BFA would be too quick and easy a end to the Old God that was “signing Deathwing’s checks” to quote Metzen. Offing N’zoth at the close of BFA might rob players of a chance to be involved meaningfully, since half of their time was wasted on a faction war no one really seemed to enjoy as a story.
I wager that’s a large part of why players are like… “Thanks but no.” N’zoth and Azshara are the end of the real threats we can see on Azeroth, and as many would agree “The Last of the Old Guard”. Players want a Black Empire themed expansion because it’s such a compelling and little known part of the lore as of yet.
- Issue #5: “Does Sylvanas support free will, or not?”
This seems to be a back and forth dependant on the expansion. Some expansions, it has been shown that Sylvanas does indeed care that the Forsaken retain free will. In other books however such as her conversation with Varimathras’ she’s shown to dislike it, as it means they can question her. There needs to be a final answer on this front after 15 years.
Right now, from what we have to go off from Before the Storm, it’s strange that any Forsaken would follow her (aside from those who ignore outright the lore). Lets look at the track-record, shall we? Sylvanas actively suppresses and has books of Lordaeron’s past burnt, murders Forsaken who’s free will tell them “not” to follow her (this happened in Classic with Kegan Darkmar as well), and she seems comfortable in using Gestapo themed tactics, in that she uses her Dark Rangers as a secret police / terror force to retain control.
While these all make sense if the character is intended to be a villain, they are less than useful qualities for a racial leader. I haven’t even touched on the most recent events where she murders the entire Desolate Council and Calia Menethil because she believes she’s being usurped.
We need to have a situation in the near future that clarifies this. Either she needs to have a moment akin to Garrosh in Thousand Needles where she actually goes out of her way to ensure the Forsaken’s Free Will, or she needs to embrace the inevitable and continue the arc she did in Cataclysm with Koltira Deathweaver, to it’s final end as a raid boss.
- Conclusion:
A lot of people like Sylvanas. I do too, but if Blizzard is truly intent on retaining Sylvanas in a meaningful fashion, Blizzard as a company needs to set up a scenario where she survives and both factions begrudgingly must work with her for the common good.
The issue here is that I don’t think player trust in her is high enough for this to be tenable. Due to this, I submit an alternative scenario that could be compelling if she was killed off, as the text in Nazjatar presently leads one to believe.
Perhaps in killing her, we see her become more contrite and remorseful than she’s ever been before. Perhaps Sylvanas suddenly start laughing bitterly and saying “…you… fools…” as she dies; and then we finally see what she saw when she impaled herself on a spike of Icecrown Citadel.
Our eyes are proverbially ‘opened’. I feel like this scenario could also align with the idea that we “do not win" Battle for Azeroth. Anyways, that’s all I have for now. I hope it was a good read for people, and that it provides at least a little consideration for all parties, whether you are pro-Sylvanas, or anti-Sylvanas.
Cheers. ^^
