Having tons of fun. Dont worry about it mate.
So I guess we are done with this discussion?
You have no further points to fabricate or present?
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My grandpa’s deck has no fabricated points allerya but what it does have is CHRONICLES VOLUME 2!!!
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You literally spent most of this thread making one false claim after another, having the inaccuracies pointed out, and now are claiming that other people “fabricate points.” It’s obvious, for example, that you never played WC3, yet you seem to think you have extensive knowledge of it. It’s absurd.
“You’re entitled to your own opinions. But not your own facts.”
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Attack her credibility directly with FACT CHECK OBLITERATION!!!
First he makes up the claim I RP as high elves despite no evidence then he claims I never played WC3. (And he has failed to produce any evidence still)
Here is the thing.
The facts as I said them are exactly as they appear and as they are.
The only hard truth is you and your fellow fanboys interpret it differently.
Here is an example.
“Grom is villain. He took demon blood to kill cenarius who was defending his own land and attacked Jaina’s forces despite them not bothering him.”
This is where you fanboys jump around and try to excuse it with statements like “Oh it was because he was attacked” or “well of course Grom did after the humans unjustly imprisoned his people!”
Completely ignoring the fact that Grom is drinking the demonblood for the SECOND TIME knowing perfectly well what would happen. Instead of retreating or trying something diplomatic what does he do?
Offer himself and his people to the demons again.
Or the fact that we all perfectly know the Orcs ravaged half the continent and killed anyone in their way until they were defeated and imprisoned.
And to you the greatest crime here is the imprisonement rather than the killing.
You see what you and Galien are doing is a good old argument falacy of attacking my character when you have no argument to back up your points.
Pretty pathetic attacks at that by the way but its the best you got. I can’t fault you for trying though.
Cheers.
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No I’m no longer taking you seriously as you don’t present compelling or credible evidence. Chronicles 2 and 3 literally disproves most if not all of what you’re saying. The orcs are no more evil than any other society that underwent societial evolution
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Feel free to point out which of the facts I said is factually incorrect.
All you have is a vague description on chronicles.
Orcs and Horde races are amoral, I don’t think villain in the same context as the legion is fair.
That’s the only explanation that in the past games that are what canonically 25 years or so? There have been several Hordes and each one has a few genocides under its belt? Its not a coincidence.
In the context of WoW what the Horde and the Orcs have done is as evil as it can be fella. You really can’t point to any other race with as much as blood on their hands than the Orcs.
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How does one condemn genocide in one breath and condone slavery in the next? Yeah orcs did some bad things but most alive today were slaves in the internment camps being forced to do manual labor or worse fight as gladiators. Now maybe I’m missing something here on the whole redemption thing here but I fail to see how turning them into a servant race for the humans would “redeem” them. The orcs aren’t even still Round because of some benevolent act of Mercy but because the alliance saw an opportunity for a massive slave labor force. That’s pretty dark too on my opinion at least
Because you do a false equivalency silly.
It seemed only a minority were used for gladiator fights. Most of them were left alone or used as labor… you know like most prisons.
I have no idea what is going on in your head canon.
Most Alliance members wanted to kill them all as they were a threat and blood thirsty monsters which the orcs were when they first arrived in Azeroth.
The only reason they stopped seemed to be because of their imprisonment.
Didn’t your Chronicles explain to you that most Alliance races including the High Elves wanted to kill them all and only Teranas’ mercy saved them? I don’t think I ever read a single line of dialogue that said “Fellow Alliance kings! We could kill them orrrrrrr use them as slaves!”
Do you have such a quote?
Well you do you buddy. It is your imagination.
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the human and high elf kingdoms savagely and merciless burned trolls alive, massacring their villages in order to steal their land. the high elves even practiced torture. high elves also being descendants of the highborns, you know the ones who instituted a brutal caste society and practiced so much decadent magic they nearly summoned sargeras himself. thank god tyrande and malfurion overthrew them and exiled those scumbags. its just too bad the amani didn’t wipe them out clean. just kidding about that last part, of course.
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You know why most Orcs alive today were in the internment camps? Because most of those Orcs were part of the demonic Horde that tried to kill everyone. They were not some “servant race,” but rather criminals that were captured and put in prison. I don’t understand why so many seem to forget this when talking about the “atrocity” of internment camps.
So, comparing it to genocide is not just a stretch. This level of false equivalency is just insane.
As Allerya pointed out, you need to brush up on your lore. Most of the Alliance wanted the monsters that had wiped out nearly half the continent killed. One of the reasons the conditions in the camps were not great was funding. The cost of the camps was a major bit of contention in the Alliance at the time.
And lets be real here, think about the choices the Alliance had. They could not let the Horde go free. Most of the ones that escaped capture where still raiding towns. Putting more out there just gets more civilians killed. Or worse, risks a reform of the Horde that then tries again to wipe out the Alliance. This leave prison or execution. Tell me, do you think execution would have been better than the camps?
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A rose by any other name is still a rose. Chronicles states that the orcs were treated brutally in the camps and used as gladiators or manual labor In grueling conditions. That is literally slavery, just because the alliance Kings didn’t say it was slavery our right doesn’t mean it wasn’t. If I run around stealing things but I don’t call it stealing does that mean I’m not stealing? Also it’s not a false equivalency, you can’t run around screaming like a self righteous idiot that we will bring just to the orcs and then enslave the warriors women and children to include children born in the camp who are not guilty of any crime other than being an orc. That’s not justice that’s subjugation. Then we all want to act surprised when those children who grew up in internment camps have a bone to pick with the alliance? I imagine I’d be pretty ready to wreck the alliance to if I lived through that.
Nobody is suggesting the camps were pleasant places. You will note I even referenced that:
Yes, there were bad things in the camps. But again, brush up on your lore. It was not slavery. Even today prisoners are used for manual labor. This is not seen as slavery.
It absolutely is. You are suggesting the camps were as bad as genocide. There is no way prisons are as evil as genocide. I mean seriously. Also, the camps existed explicitly as an alternative to genocide. I don’t understand how you can’t grasp that. The choice was imprison them or kill them. While the camps may not have been roses as sunshine, it is not nearly as bad as genocide. Thus, you are making a false equivalency.
And yet, as we have already addressed, most of the Orcs were actually people who took part in the effort to commit multiple cases of genocide. If they seriously feel that the Alliance has wronged them more than they did to the Alliance, then there is an issue with their moral compass. ‘Oh, dear me, I had to spend a few years in an unpleasant place because I tried to kill everyone, how unfair.’
I would also like to note, the only Orc leader that was raised in the camps was Thrall. And he explicitly felt the Orcs needed to redeem themselves, not seek revenge on the Alliance. It was the whole reason he chose to settle them in a harsh land.
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I mean, it was Thrall stepping down from Warchief. No question.
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Because then his entire argument falls apart.
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Lol these Blood Elves who are defending Orcs. The same Blood Elves who tell me that Orcs suck and should stay in their “mudhuts” suddenly defend Orcs when they argue with Alliance fans.
Let the Alliance hate Orcs. They can meet the Orcs on the battlefield. ![:sunglasses:](https://d38bqls1q93fod.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/sunglasses.png?v=6" ":sunglasses:")
Blood Elves were on the Alliance when Orcs were in the slave camps. They’re the last group I would care about defending Orcs or not.
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Okay I’ll clear this up for you since you’re obviously lost and don’t understand how linear time works. The third war takes place roughly 20 some odd years after the second now when vanilla drops that’s an additional 10 years meaning it’s been roughly 30 years since the events of the second war by this time meaning that the mid level officers and NCOs I’m the new horde either grew up in the camps or were born in durotar hearing the horror stories of the internment camps. The orcs who took part in the second war are old men now and only the most senior officers would have taken part in the second war.
The implications of this would be that the majority of warriors of fighting age in the horde are not second war veterans and are in fact being accosted for crimes they literally had no part in. Let that sink in for a minute the orcs that fought in pandaria were the children who grew up in the camps or hearing stories of the camps.
On that same note the humans fighting there were mostly veterans of the third war who hadn’t ever fought the orcs. so getting to the point a punishment that will span generations for an entire race is equally as unethical as genociding a race as only the first generation dealing with that punishment actually did anything.
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I don’t think you understand it nearly as well as you think you do.
Your time line is off. Since you did not bother to check your “facts,” let me help you. From the visual guide.
*Year 0 the First war.
*Year 6 second war start, somewhere in that year the Horde loses and camps are formed.
*Year 18 the camps are liberated.
*Year 25 was vanilla.
*Year 30 was invasion of Pandaria
*Year 31 was WoD.
Following the pattern, we should be in year 33. So, even BfA is still less than 30 years since the second war.
Assumption not supported by facts. What is the average age of officers in the Horde? How long does it take for an Orc to reach maturity naturally? How many kids were even born in the camps? If it is close to humans you still have any kids from the camps as teenagers to early 20s. If we apply human averages to this (something I am not sure you can) we still have, at best the oldest children from the camps just barely at low level officer age. While many would still be teenagers (and certainly all born after the camps would still be teenagers). So, you can’t be using human ages for your claim. And there is nothing in game supporting your claim. So, going to call head cannon on that one.
What we do know, is the officers and leaders Blizzard has shown us are ones that were born before the 2nd war. So, Orc leadership (the ones making the choices) are former members of the demonic horde.
Most of the officers and leaders would be 2nd war veterans. So, the ones making the decisions and leading things.
As much as your are trying to make the camps a generational thing, they only lasted for 12 years. 12 years is not a generation.
No, they are being ‘accosted for’ crimes they committed, like Teldrassil.
Let’s put a little perspective on this. The demonically fueled Orcish Horde invaded Azeroth on a genocidal quest. When they failed, they spend 12 years in internment camps, again 12 years. And you are suggesting that those 12 years are not only worse than what they were trying to do, but it also excuses things like their participation in future atrocities. In your mind, 12 years in those camps was on the same level of genocide. Again, let that sink in. You think 12 years in internment camps after attempting genocide is somehow so much worse than what the Horde has done. This is why we are calling you out for false equivalency
12 years. The orcs were ‘punished’ for 12 years. Not sure how you get from 12 years to generations.
And, the first generation is still around. Not only that, the first generation is still in charge. And more to the point, they are still committing genocidal acts.
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And how long would the camps went on had thrall not freed the orcs? They weren’t going to be released anywhere in the next few centuries especially being that the labor was creating a nice cash flow.
To answer your questions an orc considered of fighting age at roughly 16.
If we are going off human standards theses are some of the averages.
A sgt is usually between the ages of 24-28
A 2nd lt is between 22-24
A 1st lt is usually a little older but not much
A captain ( the first commanding officer rank) is around 28-32.
You are generally eligible for retirement after 20 years of service and retirement is demanded at 30 years unless a wavier is ran or you are general grade officer which you can run to 40 years if service.
Even if we call it 25 years the orcs would be around 50 if they were 25 during the war and retired or close to it. The bulk of the military would be of draft age which is between 19 and 26( that’s the human draft ages) so again the vast majority would not be second war veterans. You are talking about a huge age disparity there buddy. Most of the horde/alliance never fought in the second war.
They weren’t. The Internment camps were a money sink for Lordaeron, and are a big reason the other Kingdoms left the Alliance, because they didn’t want to pay for them. The camps were intended to keep the orcs imprisonned until they were rehabilitated.
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