The shallowness of Human Lore in Warcraft--Why?

[Cursewords-tichondrius (Cursewords)]

@Gerwin-argent-dawn

Why should Warcraft tread any more “carefully” than other settings that actually bother expanding on their human segments?

Warcraft has been walking back a lot of its initial tone deafness. And the fans it serves are different.

@Gerwin-argent-dawn

Warhammer

@Gerwin-argent-dawn

D&D

@Gerwin-argent-dawn

Elder Scrolls

Um. Those are different franchises. With different types of fans. Who are looking for different things.

@Gerwin-argent-dawn

Do you consider any of the settings above as problematic?

Look, I dont consider much problematic personally - but I can see why a company would want to stay away from this topic and pave over it as easily as possible with little discussion.

I know darn well that other people have more delicate sensibilities than I do. I am not the arbiter of good taste- I just know a mine field when I see it, and it makes sense to walk around it, or maybe tip toe gently if you must traipse into it.

@Gerwin-argent-dawn

Also, at this point in Warcraft, what racial stereotype, cliche or whatever, hasn’t already been used in any way with the other races?

That is the point - Humans are largely in some European based fantasy but they are not specifically one type of Human. The other races can take on those stereotypes in a way that does not speak to Humanity.

@Gerwin-argent-dawn

Are we to simply accept that WoW humans are to be shallow out of fear that someone may find any sort of correlation with any RL collective? That’s what dictates WoWs writing nowadays?

Not necessarily, but there are ways to expand on the depth without wading into IRL racial politics. I think the focus on Stormwind in the heritage quest speaks to that.

[Edgyjojomeme-nathrezim]

if you want infinite amount of very deep, confusing, detailed and at times disturbing lore born out of unreliable narrator and from different perspectives - check elder scrolls.

[Herné-moon-guard]

I mean, we did have various types of Humans, but most of them got wiped out: Lordaeron got scourged, Gilneans became werewolves lite, Stromgarde fell to siege years ago, Kul’tirans are Humans so we have those, etc…

Sort of makes sense, in a world of so many fantasy races the Human fringe groups would be the first to fall, what doesn’t make sense is SWindian Humans having a savior complex, especially in an Alliance shared by Draenei and Night Elves, who have leaders with life times of Human experience… Gnomes live shorter lives than even Humans, but they make up for this by being exponentially smarter on average to the point that they’re better at magic/tech… in such an Alliance, it makes more sense for a high ranking official to be any race BUT Human.

Even the Kul’tirans and Stormwind Humans kinda got lucky… the High Elves helped SW fight the Troll wars and the few allied Drust Thornspeakers introduced Lord Waycrest’s far flung ancestor to silver and fire to fight their own Death obssessed kin.

[Gerwin-argent-dawn]

@Cursewords-tichondrius

Those are different franchises. With different types of fans. Who are looking for different things.

WoW is a literal ripoff of the first two.
As in, “We couldn’t get the Coca-Cola formula, so we created Pepsi” sort of ripoff.
Quite literally, they couldn’t get the rights of the IP and did the bare minimum adjustments to launch their setting/game.

@Cursewords-tichondrius

Humans are largely in some European based fantasy but they are not specifically one type of Human

They draw from enough RL parallels so as to identify what sort of RL setting inspired the fantasy behind them.
If we follow the sort of logic you described to avoid tackling any other kind of take on humanity, that would disqualify them alongside the rest.

If writers are to restrict themselves from writing certain themes while doing Human Race narrative, I might just as well demand they remove any/all European fantasy elements i declare myself offended by.
Including any/all aspects I deem that “attack my heritage”, included but not limited to: Christian Church and political corruption, catholic fanaticism, flawed monarchic systems, despotic or outdated chivalry practices, etc.

This treatment regarding certain cultures as opposed to the “safehouse” that the European motifs apparently are, is a slippery slope that would as easily make us wonder if there is anything at all writers can address.

If that’s your starting point, then why keep any reference to other RL cultures through the rest of races?
Remove Native American motifs and inspiration from Tauren. Remove any Celtic and Norse traits from Dwarves and Humans themselves.
Remove meso-american traits from trolls, and of course, scrap the entirety of Pandaria out of existence.

After all, any of the above examples present a far more blatant aproximation to several RL cultures. And yeah, we could argue that all have been either (a) misused by the writers or (b) mistreated by the story itself.
So why keep them at all? That surely must be offending someone, somewhere.

@Cursewords-tichondrius

but there are ways to expand on the depth without wading into IRL racial politics.

Expanding on different angles and fantasies of humanity isn’t RL politics. The fact that several non-human races use them, evidences it.

And i think that the focus Stormwind has in the human heritage questline highlights the fact that Blizzard does not care that much about the racial identity of one of its playable races, and is bent instead of zeroing their focus exclusively on the point of view of a particular set of its protagonists.

From a world-building perspective, that’s all but building.

[Cursewords-tichondrius (Cursewords)]

@Gerwin-argent-dawn

If writers are to restrict themselves from writing certain themes while doing Human Race narrative, I might just as well demand they remove any/all European fantasy elements i declare myself offended by.
Including any/all aspects I deem that “attack my heritage”, included but not limited to: Christian Church and political corruption, catholic fanaticism, flawed monarchic systems, despotic or outdated chivalry practices, etc.

You could demand what ever you like, you and I both know that is not how it would play out.

There are only a few who would pretend that western culture is some victim that needs to be portrayed with sensitivity. Tucker Carlson, maybe. That stuff doesn’t fly and is not taken seriously.

@Gerwin-argent-dawn

If that’s your starting point, then why keep any reference to other RL cultures through the rest of races?

I would say the starting point was paved out and skewed decades ago, and Blizzard is working backwards to make it more accessible to other people. The creators of the franchise did not even consider non white humans existing or having a kingdom to begin with - not in their fantasy world.

[Drahliana-earthen-ring (Drahliana)]

Azeroth isn’t that large a world compared to the Realms. There are limits to what you can present on screen as opposed to type in a book.

And all those different groups of Humans… stat-wise they are identical.

[Kaileath-wyrmrest-accord]

Retroactively adding diversity tends to draw uncomfortable attention, particularly in a political climate as discordant as what we have right now. Adding new things is a lot easier to get people to buy, and it still gets backlash—See the toxic reactions to adding LGBTQ+ representation into the game over the last two expansions.

So, I get why they are being careful. I am also just gonna say if they wanted to add a new unknown nation of humans across the sea on the new continent that went full Wakana, that be pretty neat. Manapunk themed Afrofuturism sounds pretty awesome to explore.

[Gerwin-argent-dawn]

@Cursewords-tichondrius

There are only a few who would pretend that western culture is some victim that needs to be portrayed with sensitivity.

Maybe the issue here is to assume that people from certain cultures/ethinicities are so frail, that they aren’t able to bear the ingame representation of certain cultural traits that resonate with them. Even when this is done from a fantasy angle and for as long as its done with proper respect.

Again, i doubt that fans from D&D or Warhammer (Or Lord of the Rings, Elder Scrolls, A Song of Ice and Fire,…) are that different from those in WoW.
In fact, I’d be very surprised if both fanbases didn’t overlap.

Also, it feels weird reading this logic about the Western culture being some sort of safehouse that can be mistreated in whatever way any writer deems necessary.
I’m not from the US, and must say that i find it quite enjoyable when US writers tackle European motifs.
But that doesn’t mean that i couldn’t or wouldn’t feel offended if i decided to, if i see that the views expressed treat MY culture without the level of respect it deserves.

That’s the reason why i don’t think other angles can’t be targeted as potential sources of great storytelling.

Maybe the reason why US writers had so much success with their initial takes on Warcrafts story, is because they were inspired by the works of other writers that didn’t mince their words nor their work depending on which ethnicity they were writing about.

@Cursewords-tichondrius

I would say the starting point was paved out and skewed decades ago, and Blizzard is working backwards to make it more accessible to other people.

Again then, i ask, would you remove any RL reference from the rest of races too?
After all, any RL aspect can be deemed as problematic by any collective.

@Drahliana-earthen-ring

Azeroth isn’t that large a world compared to the Realms. There are limits to what you can present on screen as opposed to type in a book.

There is no need to have a 1:1 ingame representation of the cultures you are developing for the setting.

Plenty of the development we have for other races, is touched on offscreen or with some succinct lines, with peaks here and there.

There are like 3-4 npcs to represent each Orc clan, despite the fact that they probably count in the thousands for each.

What i meant when i started this thread, is that WoW Human story is very very limited in terms of depth. And yes, i compared it with other mediums to highlight how evident this problem is.

Azeroth’s size shouldn’t be relevant in order to have a more expanded take on WoWs humanity. Nor should it hinder its narrative development.

@Kaileath-wyrmrest-accord

Retroactively adding diversity tends to draw uncomfortable attention, particularly in a political climate as discordant as what we have right now.

To be honest, my take wasn’t really about adding diversity, and more about building on the foundations already created for the race (Even if i admit that leaning on its diversity is an attractive angle for me, given how engaging i find when it happens in other settings).

The “crime” i see here, is having close to zero development from a societal viewpoint, for a race that has narrative angles from 7 different kingdoms, and almost 30 RL years of storytelling on their back.

Despite the above, the amount of cultural development the race has had, is just derisory.

[Cursewords-tichondrius (Cursewords)]

@Gerwin-argent-dawn

Again, i doubt that fans from D&D or Warhammer (Or Lord of the Rings, Elder Scrolls, A Song of Ice and Fire,…) are that different from those in WoW.
In fact, I’d be very surprised if both fanbases didn’t overlap.

I would disagree. There might be some over lap but those are different fanbases.

I love the Silmarillian. The stuff in that book is much more grim than LOTR or the Hobbit. But that doesn’t mean it works well in today’s WoW. The Dwarves are portrayed wickedly in ways that get discussed as analogous to antisemitism.

I am not a fan of DnD or Warhammer. Never got into them and no interest.

I played Elder Scrolls because a former room mate was into them, so I would play on his X Box. It generally has a better, more fleshed out story, with tons of detail. But I never played it after we parted ways and have no interest. The game play was lacking, but the story was good.

GoT does not even seem a proper comparison. I do not think WoW could operate in that type of lore unless it was rated M. They can do more in that franchise. When I watch GoT I do not want to see WoW. When I play WoW, I do not necessarily want to see GoT vibes all over the place. Different franchises have different fanbases.

You can say WoW was a wayward clone of Warhammer and lifted elements of DnD and Tolkien - sure. But that combination makes it something different.

[Jacorios-moon-guard]

Let’s be honest, there isn’t a modern franchise that hasn’t lifted things from other popular franchises. Every company does it. The key is to twist and or subvert it enough to make it distinctly different from the thing it’s based on.

I agree with you though. I would rather have things in WoW that feel like it belongs to the IP, rather than blatantly ripping off another franchise

[Thormus-hakkar]

@Gerwin-argent-dawn

Exactly. And why is this systematically ignored? Why throw away the card that could’ve expanded so much the human lore?

Is it a tacit way to signal that on top of having this superficial and cliche medieval fantasy them to them, human species as a whole was also culturally monolithic?
As in “They all behaved the same way, had the same culture and customs, and the same societal values”.
Or is it plain lazyness?

Because either alternative is really really disappointing.
It’s even more aggravating because with the orc clans they KNEW how to tackle similar circumstances (as seen in their heritage questline), so we know they know how to address this kind of situation.

I’m not all that versed in all of WoWs works, but i recall one novel that at least tried to differentiate human kingdoms before the Second War. If only through their rulers/kings.

How cool would it be, to have for example some lines about human segments that do not follow the Stormwind pattern. About some of them having different roots, that make them behave differently, wear different clothes, or even by physically distinct.

Maybe Stromgarde was so linked to its Vrykul roots that they did not pray to the Light.
Maybe all that time spent battling the Amani, made them pray to similar gods as them.
Maybe they prayed to a Loa, only they called Halazzi differently and pictured it as a lion instead of a Lynx (hence humanity’s current symbol).
They could’ve even kept their rulers being “Jarls” and Karls, instead of kings and nobles.

Maybe Lordaeron was the most religious of them all. Or maybe it filled in the “merchant” trope, and turned to be the wealthiest.

Maybe the constant magic influx that surrounded them, made humans from Dalaran appear to have distinct features that marked them apart from the rest of the kingdoms/clans. They may have even facilitated a whole bunch of elf half-breeds that could now populate the setting.

I don’t know, there are just so many alternatives and venues that the race could expand on.

There’s so many interesting things and scenarios they could do and a lot of them are relatively simple. There’s no logical reason for humanity to be this dull and boring. Especially considering there was a time that they weren’t during WC2-WC3.

Another interesting scenario if they really wanted the humans under a single banner would be a story with them restoring the Arathorian Empire. But this time with it based in Stormwind. That would be the perfect story to ancient human customs and ceremonies. The different human leaders of the various realms under the Empire could be in Stormwind Keep meeting with Turalyon as well as troops/followers serving in different ways. A big importance is put on the recent rebuilding of Stromgarde. And with that, Danath Trollbane has been given authority over most of the Empire’s northern frontier. Tasked with defending the newly rebuilt Southshore and keeping a watchful eye on the Plaguelands. Perhaps he’d prefer to handle it all by himself but he has to rely on Lord Ravenholdt’s rogues to be his scouts which many in Arathi are still distrustful of.

[Baalsamael-turalyon (Baalsamael)]

@Gerwin-argent-dawn

This treatment regarding certain cultures as opposed to the “safehouse” that the European motifs apparently are

For the hundredth time, there is a difference between writing the races with Racist/Ethnic Stereotype Tropes and using history inherently invoked

Examples of the former:

• The “all trolls except Horde trolls are cannibal savages”
• Baine historically doing nothing, literally sitting for an entire expansion (sitting bull reference if we’re honest), constantly siding with the Alliance
• If they wrote Moira as an alcoholic abusive mother (Irish stereotype)

Examples of the latter:

• Political complexity if they write a plot where the Tauren or the Troll want to reunify (eg the histories of Pan Africanism)
• An attempt to reunify the Human Kingdoms into a new empire like the Holy Roman Empire
• Adding deep history regarding the evolution of the Church of Light; when did it become the State Religion? Was their conflict with vrykul Titan worship or early shamanism and druidism? When did the other Churches of the other Kingdoms get formallzed as Sui Juris Churches with their own Patriarch Archbishop? If the founder of the Church was a woman, was there originally more Matrirchs?

Etc etc etc

[Baalsamael-turalyon (Baalsamael)]

And moreover there is yet a other difference between using in-game histories of racism with forcibly assigning IRL histories to their analogs

[Gerwin-argent-dawn]

@Baalsamael-turalyon

Examples of the former:

Jesus christ, no.
Of course we must avoid those!!

What i meant by narrative development regarding WoW Humans, leaned on developing the following 3 pillars for their obviously distinct segments/kingdoms:

• History: Background, ancestry, noteworthy events that defined them, etc.
• Culture: Creed, political organisation, societal strata, etc.
• Appearance: Notable physical differences, behaviour, mindset, garments, etc.

Of course, many traits would obviously be shared by many/most, as it happens with other races in the setting such as Orcs, dwarves, trolls, etc.
But highlighting and acknowledging even the slightest of differences, would make the overall race narrative feel far richer.

It would serve as catalyst to create more dynamics between their different collectives, and affect how the race interacts with other species.

Maybe some human segment could end up finding more kinship with a different race, instead of with fellow humans.
Maybe there could be different ways to worship the Light. Or even some humans that would rather pray to a Wild God instead.

Don’t know, have some of the good old competition between human kingdoms like they tried with Alterac and Stromgarde instead of having all humanity follow on some Wrynn’s footsteps like drones.

In all i honestly fail to see how any of the above would or could be deemed as problematic enough for Blizzard writers to rather lean on, as Cursewords put it; ‘throw skin colors into a Disney castle and call it a day’.

@Jacorios-moon-guard

I would rather have things in WoW that feel like it belongs to the IP, rather than blatantly ripping off another franchise

Issue i find here, and excuse me Cursewords if i misinterpreted you, is trying to make it seem as if the main difference between WoW and the settings that inspired it, is that its fanbase and writers, are (or should be) in some way far more mindful regarding the possible parallels the setting may have with Real Life and who they might offend.

And i’m sorry if i sound disrespectful here, but if we are to take it as an excuse as to why the human race is so underdeveloped when compared to the ones in the other settings…that’s just utter bollocks.

[Jacorios-moon-guard]

@Gerwin-argent-dawn

And i’m sorry if i sound disrespectful here, but if we are to take it as an excuse as to why the human race is so underdeveloped when compared to the ones in the other settings…that’s just utter bollocks.

Perhaps it should have been worded differently. But what I’m saying is that WoW humans currently have everything they need in game to make them distinct from one another.

I believe Baal pointed it out and talked about it here, but the foundation is already there, It just needs to be expanded and built upon.

[Erevien-aegwynn]

Despite being generic Stormwind is still the strongest kingdom on Azeroth. That is a status you can be proud of.

[Dinral-moon-guard]

That doesnt mean anything though. Power levels and population numbers fluctuate constantly in this game with no rhyme or reason. Cultural and setting lore holds way more value because it actually makes the world feel fleshed out. You know, world building.

[Erevien-aegwynn]

Compared to Guild Wars 2, Swtor and ESO the world building in WOW is not much. Which is because of the devs always priotizing gameplay and the current expansion.

[Gerwin-argent-dawn]

@Jacorios-moon-guard

the foundation is already there, It just needs to be expanded and built upon.

On this i agree. 100%.

But i feel that it would also require of creating new elements to help reconcile all these elements, and speed things in order to have these stories catch up with the rest.

Apart from the obvious flavour texts or questlines, some examples of the new would be:
New visual elements for each kingdom (outfits, buildings,…), new active protagonists that carry their story forth, and even new settings and locations that could frame these stories.

Have Danath introduce us to a new young Stromgarde protagonist, alongside a bunch of fellow settlers eager to return to their homeland. See firsthand a new set of models and visuals (clothes, etc.) that differentiate those humans from those in Stormwind, and explore how they deal with their struggles.
Perhaps they are more belligerent, or maybe they are more diplomatic. Maybe some of them want to part ways from Stormwind and be independent once again.

Also, and i know that this sits ill for some, i would use the newly spread customisation options to further reinforce the differences between human groups. Have certain features be more dominant in certain kingdoms or human segments.

Much like it happens with the Maghar, trolls, or with Dwarves. Or with humans themselves in other mediums.

These do not need to abide to any particular stereotype, thus incurring in the risk of falling into some Racist trope, and I think that it would help them visually stand out more from a playable perspective.

But this bit is tertiary. My main focus would be on developing the other stuff first.

[Kaileath-wyrmrest-accord]

Well, if they focus a Light expansion in the Eastern Kingdoms as I am thinking they will, it would not surprise me if they did expand out the human lore some as they do zone refreshes.