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You know the Noble Savage trope isn’t supposed to be desirable right?
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Some might not want it. I personally always enjoyed it.
At least when it was done right anyway.
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I think the problem is that it’s one of WoW’s ugly little roots in that it was most likely what shaped many of the non-alliance races, but the term itself is a racist one. I used to use it myself back when I hadn’t looked up the definition and assumed it was just an alternate meaning of tribal organizations, but “noble savage” is a patronizing term that’s more like “oh look at how pure and innocent race X lives when not burdened by knowledge and technological advancement”.
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I’ll take it a thousand times over the Stupid Psycho Savages the Horde overall keeps getting saddled with.
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This forum historically utterly fails to grasp racist tropes are bad.
I mean the fact our narrative choices are Racist Trope 1 and Racist Trope 2 is just… lol… lmao
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The sad part is, that’s not really that hard to grasp. I think the worst offenders are the people who bend over backwards to defend said racist tropes
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shrug I’m a fan of old late 19th century early 20th century pulp fantasy/sci-fi. When reading stuff from the time when thinking “white Christian men are inherently superior to non-white non-Christian non-men” was considered “simple common sense” you just accept that sometimes the author’s gonna do a racism. Most of the time it just makes me roll my eyes a little, then I keep reading. Though there’s still stuff like the ending of Lovecraft’s ‘The Medusa’s Coils’ or the beginning of Howard’s ‘The Vale of Lost Women’ where you have to stop and go “Wow, really? Kinda showing your pointy white hood on your sleeve there guys.”
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Must say that i agree on this one.
WoW has always had this mid-low tier narrative quality to it.
And just as i would expect from any Marvel or Alien movie, where americans save the day and make the rest of the world feel like fools, I simply do not find myself bothered regarding the delicacy with which its writers treat certain fantasy tropes. They are hard enough to handle for far more competent writers, so as to expect proper treatment from a setting based around largely copying different themes from other IPs and filling the gaps with pop-culture references.
Honestly, I would fully expect them to go into the open demonisation of certain cultures (or what we’d call the Ignoble Savage trope), if someday they decided to actively try to avoid falling into that sort 'Noble Savage" characterisation.
In Baine’s case a lot of the sad Tauren stuff is perpetuated by players who dislike him due to a more diplomatic and peace-loving nature, and so don’t give him any credit at all when he actually does break that state and do something much more violent and showcases his temper. He’s a pre-Cata era Horde character archetype smack in the middle of what’s become a much more watered down and antagonistic faction dynamic (similar to Anduin in that sense).
He’s had moments where he’s very much been on the warpath, not as many as Thrall but the vibe is the same. He’s just maligned by often bad faith arguments from people who… don’t know Tauren lore, which is Blizzard’s fault in large part because the Kalimdor Tauren have been left to sit and do nothing for years.
The Mulgore quest chain has him basically curbstomping Grimtotem, you have his actions in some of the novels as well, or implied actions (nearly breaking Sylvanas, the AU where he literally rips Garrosh in half with his bare hands), the Tauren heritage where he had to be talked down by the ghosts of his parents to not utterly destroy the dark spirits, and of course his current quest chain where he does get shown to have more nuance.
A quest chain I noticed wasn’t talked about too much on this forum, funny enough.
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Ebyssian didn’t simply take on a tauren appearance. From what we can tell he was raised as one and lived as one for centuries. So it’s natural that he would have taken on there mores.
We still have that line of thought in the few inner faction Alliance stories we get and some joint H/A stories. Saurfang’s story stands out the most.
The official term for the trope is “White Man’s Burden;” it is especially common in fantasy settings when the humans have to “correct” the non-humans to the proper or better human way of doing something.
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Had that been the case, people would’ve equally despised his father Cairne, who also sported these diplomat traits and did so far before his son started doing the same.
And yet, the same people that dislike Baine, praise the likes of Cairne.
I’d ask myself why. Why do people dislike Baine even if they loved Cairne.
Because said questline is far to little and far to late.
To much baggage to counter with a single optional questline. I’m sorry, but to much of Baine’s recent spotlight has hinged on a particular side of him.
And the traits he displayed in those instances have created an image of him that cannot be magically fixed with a side quest.
Because yeah, he had an alternate version of him that apparently snapped Garrosh in two…but he also had a novel where he used his “diplomat” skills to downright excuse the attackers that had killed his own people.
And that quest where he stomped Grimtotem, was implemented in the same zone that presented us with a quest that introduced a bunch of Tauren that had just been expelled from their lands by Baine, for fighting against the attackers that were still looting their village.
We’d also have again and again, cinematics such as the one where he gives Derek back to Jaina.
Another instance where Baine has to go behind his allies back to yet again favour a particular segment of their enemies, while giving his usually kicked-puppy speech to try and make the audience feel so so sorry for him…
When facing a similar juncture, Cairne declared a death duel against the one he felt was responsible for the atrocity.
In my case, things like those make a world of a difference.
You can’t rely on a set of specific traits and then be surprised when the audience get a certain impression regarding the character.
I’d understand that to be honest.
I just wish he had retained some of the aspects that made him feel like a dragon. As of now, i feel as if his visage form is his dragon appearence and not the other way around.
Also, if he was raised by the HM he could’ve at least picked some of their other traits, and be more like Huln or Lasan.
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Also if we take Wrathion’s words at face value, (a dicey proposition to be sure) Ebyissian has been targeted by the Old Gods for manipulation which was one of the reasons he kept to Highmountain.
“Baine is spineless and weak in the face of the Alliance to the point of being unfit to lead”
“Argue in good faith please. You have to admit he really showed strength and conviction by banishing his people”
I grouse a lot about how badly Legion wanted us to forget Magatha was Cairne’s true murderer, not Garrosh, but the crone really is more of an ally to the Horde than the calf is at this point.
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Because Cairne existed pre-faction war and prior to Blizzard’s writing style changing to put lore characters front and centre akin to a comic book. People have short memories when it suits their argument, and Blizzard’s storytelling tools have changed drastically since the last time Cairne was alive. And yes, Cairne did fight Garrosh, for the title of Warchief, and then he died. Some level of objectivity needs to be applied to BfA and SL writing as well, BfA especially, where it wasn’t characters driving the plot but the writers deciding what they wanted to happen then leading the characters around the nose to accomplish it.
Also, why would the quest chain be ‘too little too late’? This is what I mean, there’s a lack of logic to the way people look at Baine. Is it too late for Thrall? Who made googly eyes at Jaina for years, worked with the Alliance several times over for years, and fought alongside them to overthrow an unhinged Warchief twice? Was it too late for Vol’jin, who had a human peer that attended his funeral (in secret) and who reached out to the Alliance to help fight again Zul’aman and Zul’gurub? Who worked with Alliance in the Barrens?
It’s just strange to me, honestly. People act as if he’s done egregious betrayals and can’t be salvaged, meanwhile we’ve got Thrall over there doing all the things Baine does, and more, and people are clamouring for more.
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Who’s clamoring for more Thrall? Metzen? Does even he want that at this point?
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The reason I think is because Baine has constantly been on the side of either doing little, or worse, doing things that are counter-productive in the name of peace.
Thrall did try time and again for diplomacy, but he still fought and stood up for his people. Vol’jin was much the same, who tried to keep to that standard.
Baine tries to do the same thing, but fails.
Thrall isn’t perfect, but Baine makes for an even more imperfect Thrall, if that makes any sense.
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I think getting people to look past Baine sending part of his horn as a gift to Anduin, and then Zovaal dangling Baine from a cliff, calling him worthless, and tossing him like trash only to see him sit all of shadowlands in a corner is gonna take a lot of work.
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Ultimately, they need to distance Baine from Anduin and put them at odds. Have baine actually disagree with saviour boy. Have him stand on his own two feet and do something for the Horde to make it stronger.
Making Anduin the villain would be the easiest fix for this problem, so baine could stand against him.
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Its a nice dream but, yea… I cannot ever imagine them making soft angelic magic bones boy go Antagonist.
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