The Question - Are Shamans Tanks?

Hey guys, Meat Mountain here. I’m going to take the highly contested point of “Are Shamans tanks?” here to the forums so we don’t spam lfg and so people stop making personal attacks of the subject!

Clearly shamans can tank lots of lower level dungeons. They have some passive mitigation talents and totems that reduce damage taken. And they have some spells/abilities that generate a lot of threat. And they can use a shield. They’re plenty fine for tanking lower end dungeons, which is not what I’m contesting.

I’m contesting that once they hit higher levels, let’s say… 40-45. As soon as they hit ZF, Uldaman, that tanking becomes much more difficult. You have to pull smaller, focus targets, and a lot more things.

So what are the criteria? Well, outside of the list of things that shamans already have defensively, I’m going to break it down into 3 simple things…

  1. Active mitation. A short cooldown spell or ability that reduces the damage enemies do to you. Shield block, demoralizing shout, (Or Roar for our feral friends.)

  2. An active defensive cooldown. This one is a bit trickier, but ok. If you don’t have an active cooldown to save yourself from imminent death, WITHOUT LOSING AGGRO ON THE TARGET you’re going to have difficulty in higher end content. Cooldowns such as Last Stand that increases your health, shield wall that reduces incoming damage.

  3. A taunt. Being defined as an ability or talent that Forces a target to attack you. For this purpose, neither Pet ‘Growl’ that increases the likelihood nor Stoneclaw Totem that taunts creatures to attack IT instead of YOU

I’m not saying shamans “can’t” tank at lower levels. Or in higher dungeons. (Although, shamans tanking in higher dungeons requires quite a bit of concessions to work around their lack of the listed items.)
All I’m contesting is that they aren’t a tank class for the express purpose of being the primary target of a boss.

If you want to provide your own input, feel free. I’m glad to banter and converse around the three central points I’ve made here.

I tanked every 5-man in Vanilla as a shaman, and it’d be even easier in 1.12.

Are shaman the optimal tank for 5-mans? No. Can we get the job done? Yes.

(Doesn’t realistically work in raids, but raids are a tiny portion of the game.)

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Raid tanks? Not at all, but for 5 man dungeons? I’ve seen it done so its definitely possible.

With the advent of Rockbiter weapon and Earth Shock every 6 seconds in the shammy tool kit, I can see them tanking all the way to 60 and even some good off tanking in MC for the three fights you need something like that.

I think they can be tanks. ::she says hesitantly:: I’d be willing to try grouping with a shaman tank, as long as he/she can come rescue me if I have aggro as a healer.

I’ve grouped with a small handful of shamans in various dungeons so far, and they seem to pull aggro easily. On nights when I feel frustrated, I say to myself, “That’s it! I’m never grouping with a shaman in dungeons again.” lol

But I’ve noticed that my curious side always wins over anger or fear. So now that you mention shaman tanks, I think I’d like to try grouping with one, just for fun, to see how it goes. Just because I’m curious. :slight_smile:

just about any class can fill the “tank role” for a 5 man dungeon, it just requires the whole group working as a team and most likely progressing slower than a standard group comp. Most random PuGs are probably not going to be able to coordinate that well which is why it’s just not common outside of guild/friend groups.

Bergen I’m not sure why you care so much about this to support a several hour long discussion in lookingforgroup chat and then make a forum post.

They can. Plenty of people do. None of the content in phase one is so difficult that you can’t outside of a few mechanics that require the specific tools that a warrior provides. Yes, it might be more difficult on some encounters. Yes, it will be easier on other encounters. Can they progress as a tank past phase 1 content? Probably not very well since there isnt a lot of gear that supports that playstyle for shamans.

If you’re really so curious go roll a shaman of your own and give it a shot.

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Back in Vanilla my buddy was a shaman. I think we got up through BRD with him tanking ok. Past that became undoable for us. Ymmv.

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My smoothest experience in ZF, Maraudon, and Blackrock Depths has been a shaman tank. While I definitely wouldn’t want one as a main tank for a raid, and they suffer especially in big mob number pulls, they absolutely can tank. With how many warriors refuse to tank, having at least another class willing to do it is not a bad thing.

If you don’t like shaman tanks, don’t go to groups that have them. Personally, I like a bit more of a challenge.

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Bergen I’m not sure why you care so much about this to support a several hour long discussion in lookingforgroup chat and then make a forum post.

I think he made this post in an attempt to get the discussion out of the LFG channel, but people keep starting it up there over and over, I suspect specifically to piss off the people who are tired of the argument, at least in a few cases.

I will say this: Shamans naturally have an easier time gaining initial aggro than Warriors, due to working with Mana instead of Rage. Taunt not working on (some? All? Not sure) bosses does make the lack of a proper taunt less important.

However, the point remains that they are by far the least durable out of any argued tanks, due to using Mail armor instead of Plate, and not having the druidbear Armor Inflation to compensate, and not having any meaningful defensive cooldowns.

This boils down to what I brought up as an important detail in this discussion when it was happening in the channel. The question of “What is a tank” has different answers among different people. The people arguing that Shamans are tanks are simply asking “Can they serve as a tank in five-man content?” and stop asking there. Since the durability of a proper tank isn’t as important in low-level fivemans, they are generally sufficient, and their admittedly crazy threat gen potential is a boon that can lead to smooth runs, since the DPS are less likely to steal aggro.

However, Bergen and myself, and others arguing that Shamans are not tanks further ask: “Can they serve as a tank in five-man content, and can they continue to serve as tanks into high-end content and raids?” This is an important distinction. Once you get into high-end content, the lack of the critical tanking tools outlined in Bergen’s initial post become essential, and become the difference between “Tanking” and merely “A DPS has aggro, heal him through it”.

“Can you tank?” And “Are you a tank?” are two different questions to the people who say no; to the people who say Shamans are tanks, they are the same question. This is the root of the argument.

(Edit: also, damn, the forums are behind. Level 38 Beraine, really?)

Easily til level 40, then it probably depends on the player. Not for raids.

Pallies could also tank with a two-hander at lower levels, but it wasn’t what you were supposed to do. And in a pinch, a rogue can tank if they have a decent healer.

Oh farming the shoulders and gloves from the troll minibosses (among other things) in ST with two guildies back in the day - we were rogue, mage and priest. The evasion tanking was real. As was the cannibalism. Pity those Atal’ai.

Power to the Forsaken!

I think this is a great, thoughtful post here. The question “Can Shaman (Shamans? Shawomen? Shladiesandshgentlemen) tank?” is inherently ambiguous, and gets trolly and dramatic quickly. So like it or lump it, I’m not going to answer. Shifting it to “Can a shaman fill the tanking role?” Is a more useful question, at least to me. Why is that more useful? Because it has a very very easy definition. When you are a tank, you have one job and one job only:

Reduce the total amount of damage taken by the party to the minimum possible.

That’s it. Any other discussions of mechanics or abilities pretty much get trumped, at least in my book. And what makes this job so special, is that unlike other roles, you’re the only one in the general case* who should really be taking more damage personally as a result.

So how do you do that?

  1. You make sure you get targeted as much as possible.
  2. You try to get missed as much as you can.
  3. You mitigate what you can’t.

HOW TO GET HIT:

When Blizzard released Classic, one of the reasons I got back into it was I remembered the rules. The average player in Classic is SO much more skilled than I recall seeing or being that most folks have a pretty good general idea of how threat/aggro work that a lot of this is second-nature to folks, but I’m going to put out some rules. If my numbers are off, feel free to correct me. Here’s the basic deal on threat:

  1. Every mob has a threat table built into it, which it will use to select targets, and there is an entry for a lot of stuff in there. Party members, allies, you, pets, totems. Threat is just a simple spreadsheet of two values: your name, and your threat. Most of the time, this will make the mob use single target offensive stuff on the top of the table - most folks know that part.

  2. When the mob is initially pulled, the mob aims at the top of the table*, and will continue to attack it until the target is dead, out of range, or it is convinced it should be targeting someone else.

  3. Threat is generated by your behavior. I’m not going to go into the specifics, but most things that you do usually generate threat - dealing damage to a mob, hurting its friends, casting most abilities, even drinking potions add threat to the mobs that are active at the time. Things that you are, however generally don’t - MP5, Druid cat energy, etc.

  4. Mobs switch their attention at certain thresholds: If you’re in melee range, that’s going to be 110% of the current target’s threat, from caster/projectile range, that’s going to be 130%. Ever wonder why melee healer shammies and stabby druid healers tend to pull aggro easier than a priest standing back and wanding something? That’s why - you may have the same threat as healers, but the attention threshold is significantly lower. Point is, a tank has to be conscious of the mechanics of the other players.

  5. Lastly, threat is additive, and has no decay. This is important because a really spammy DPS or unlucky healer may cross that threshold. So if you need to grab Aggro, there are three ways of doing it:

A) Out-threatening someone. This is where AoE tanks really shine, like Pallies and Shammies - their ability to do direct damage to more than one mob is awesome, and while I said I wasn’t going to go into threat mathematics, dealing damage to a mob generates threat proportional to that mob (1 damage is 1 threat to a mob without modifiers - modifiers like Defensive Stance for warriors which increase it, or Berserker Stance, or Subtlety which decrease it). Since healer threat is distributed more-or-less evenly amongst mobs, having mana which bears and warriors don’t, the ability to get initial aggro and keep it is really, really great on large, sloppy pulls and can really keep them organized - examples of this are the first righthand pull in the Gahz’rilla area of Zul’Farrak, the 5-man pulls in RFC second half, or the first couple of pulls for lower-level characters in SM Cath when you open the church doors if you’re face pulling. AoE tanks can clean up on add-heavy fights like Witch Doctor and Antu’Sul In ZF and can do some really kinky things in terms of wipe prevention in this case. Bears as well don’t have stances so swipe spamming is a great way to pick up extra mobs through damage to multiple targets. With enough rage, hybrid warriors can stance dance to sweeping strikes or Thunder Clap, or pop Berserker Stance to cleave, but that gets mechanically difficult quickly. For single-target, threat-building abilities like Rockbiter, Sunder and Revenge have threat bonuses of various types and values. For warriors after the pull phase of the fight, these provide efficient methods of increased threat and debuff the mob to boot. Abilities that say “Generates High Threat” always have a bonus past the actual damage, most of the time as a flat addition to the threat. Remember that the two mob-switching thresholds apply, so when you get aggro off of your intended ally, always consider walking the mob back if your ally is ranged.

B) Taunt-Like abilities: There are a heap of these, and some of them work slightly differently, pet Growl, for example is an increase on the already-applied threat from the pet, boosting its aggro. Some taunts work through temporarily forcing the mob to attack the target, and then return aggro to the normal aggro table. Examples of this are AoE taunts like Challenging Shout for warriors or Roar for

B) Taunt-like abilities - things like

NOOOOOO WHERE’S THE REST OF IT

I want to read the rest of your thesis paper! Sometimes theorycraft like that can be interesting and I wanted to see your conclusions and reasoning behind them.

Sounds like a bunch of warrsplaining to me.

Shaman tank 5 mans just fine as long as they don’t try to stretch level/gear check too much (and know what they’re doing generally, but this applies to any “tank” spec). It’s been well established and lived many times over for years.

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When looking for tanks in Stormwind, shamans never volunteer. I assume it’s because they know they can’t handle it.

:wink:

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