The newest set of nerfs for Ret

I get 3.6%. Art of War has a 12% x 1.5 = 18% proc rate. Ashes to Dust has a 20% proc chance. Thus overall AtD procs on 0.18 x 0.2 = 0.036 (3.6%) of auto-attacks. That’s 0.6 procs per minute, before Haste or Zeal.

Now, with Zeal nerfed, it increases our un-hasted number of auto-attacks per minute from 16.67 to 19.18 (was 20.44, so a ~6% nerf), the ppm of AtD becomes 0.69, scaling up directly with Haste (so with 20% Haste the ppm becomes 0.828).

So, given Wake of Ashes’ CD of 45s, there’s about a 40% chance that Wake will be reset before it normally comes off CD, un-hasted (assuming Zeal). At 20% Haste this becomes ~47%

Feels Bad, probably won’t take it, assuming I even level my Pally, which is looking increasingly unlikely (and no Pally probably means ‘level some alt to cap, fly a dragon round for a while, unsub’).

5 Likes

I guess Im not undersaanding wth is going on with DF Ret.

All over the internet, people have been very upset re the state of DF ret and its design.

Yet here are ANOTHER round of mega nerfs to the class?

How can this be if the class has been a dumpster fire up til now in DF?

what had justified the nerfs?

10 Likes

Ashes to Dust on Live has 50% yes?
Ashes to Dust has 20% on DF Beta now.
Art of War was nerfed by 25% total due to the Blade of Wrath nerf. From 24% to 18%.

25% off of the 20% Ashes to Dust DF version comparatively to live which is un-nerfed is 15%, versus 50%.
This doesn’t take into account the Zeal nerf either… so it’s actually lower than 15% compared to live.

But as i’m writing this i think i may have done 15% of 18%… i should have done directly 20% of 18% and not continue from some other place.

Regardless, it’s probably not going to be worth it i think.
Ret is a crap spec with nerfed lots of proc rates compared to live.

Their massive damage during raid testing. These nerfs were justified as rets were overperforming by quite a large margin.

Dmg nerfs are 100% justified, we aren’t disputing that.

But they didn’t nerf us with % dmg only, they nerfed proc chances.
Meaning our gameplay will be slower due to less procs, less HP generated.

That’s what we’re complaining about.
Tuning should be done, but tuning that nerfs directly %dmg, not gameplay nerfs!

9 Likes

Didn’t they only nerf one?

id like to see side by side class damage parses.

I have a hard time believing that mages, evokers, rogues, and warriors arent doing the same amount of damage, if not more.

In fact everything im reading bout warriors is they are the msot broken OP dps class.

2 Likes

Those aren’t out yet.

Rogues already got nerfed, the others aren’t nearly as bad as ret was.

These are %dmg nerfs and are fine in general, just normal tuning, but with one mention at Execution Sentences:

  • Greater Judgement - Judgement now causes the target to take 20% increased damage from your next Holy Power ability (was 25%).

  • Divine Purpose increases the damage of your next holy damage spender by 15% (was 20%).

  • Execution Sentence deals 10% of damage done (was 20%). - this makes the ability really lacking

  • Templar’s Verdict damage reduced by 35%.

  • Final Verdict damage reduced by 35%

  • Divine Storm damage reduced by 35%

This is 100% the most justified one where it nerfs Wings duration:

  • Zealot’s Paragon extension reduced to 0.5 seconds (was 1 second).

These are gameplay nerfs:

  • Zeal - Judgment now causes your next 2 auto attacks to occur 30% faster (was your next 3).

  • Ashes to Dust now 20% chance to reset Wake of Ashes instead of Blade of Justice (was 35%).

These increase RNG nerfs:

  • Seal of Crusader increases Holy Damage taken by 3/6% (was 5/10%).

  • Templar’s Vindication changed to a 15% chance of a 10/20% Templar’s Verdict (was 15/30% chance of a 15/30% Templar’s Verdict).

The gameplay nerfs are really bad and the RNG nerfs are annoying af and counterproductive.

It will increase RNG, meaning instead of nerfing %dmg they nerfed their chance to occur, meaning we can get them to proc (very rarely) enough to 1 shot someone.

That is not how one balances properly.

2 Likes

Which is fine because you could get 100% uptime on Zeal, sometimes even getting more stacks of zeal than you could spend. It was a ridiculous. Zeal isn’t going to stay the same as it was in SL with all the new talents to judgement.

Also fine, Holy power generation was stupidly high already.

Both of these are negligible.

It’s not fine because:

  1. they nerfed Blade of Wrath, meaning we get less Art of War procs
  2. This further nerfs Art of War proc chances

So our gameplay got slower twice.

It was already nerfed by the Blade of Wrath nerfed AND the Sanctification nerf, since it was OP.

Do you even know the chance to get a proc of it now compared to Live?
How much lower do you think it is? To get a wake proc.

Seal of the Crusader is weak as hell now.
Templar’s Vindication is even more rng and weaker now.

So in the end what did the nerfs do?

  1. They increased RNG
  2. Slowed gameplay
  3. Reduced dmg

Number 3 is fine, number 1 and 2 aren’t.
When nerfing they should avoid number 1 and 2, they didn’t.
That’s what’s wrong with the nerfs.

6 Likes

They nerfed Ashes to Dust (the WoA reset) from 35% to 20%. They nerfed Templar’s Vindication from 30% rate to 15%.

On top of that they nerfed the damage of a whole bunch of procs, and the size of a whole bunch of passive talents. Overall FV/TV lost almost half its damage - it needed nerfing to bring a bit more damage into the builders, but this seems way excessive (and done in the wrong way).

Oh, and Zeal was nerfed, and that lowers the Art of War proc rate, so another nerf there (and that also further nerfs Ashes to Dust). Of course, when you nerf Art of War, you nerf every single talent that buffs BoJ or procs off it as well (and many of them are weak already).

The weird thing is that they did the sensible thing in nerfing TV/FS (and now DS as well) by hammering their base damage. However, rather than take advantage of the space that gives to make the talents that give procs off them more impact, they nerfed those too.

And gameplay was twice as fast. Have you forgotten this is the FIRST patch of an expansion? Gameplay should not feel like it’s the last patch of BfA with corruptions for the FIRST patch of the expansion.

Emphasis on stupidly high, this brings it more inline with how it should play.

Comparing live to Dragonflight is futile. There’s a whole brand new talent system, so comparing individual talents as if that makes any sort of point is simply wrong.

How much weaker is it now? How much damage do we lose? What’s the sim?

Which was negligible before, and is slightly less negligible now. Slightly less.

The nerfs are fine. Ret is fine and will be fine.

The good news is that Templar’s Vindication now makes Seal of Wrath look good. The bad news is that if you want Final Verdict and Vanguard’s Momentum you have to take Vindication, so that’s effectively a two-point tax on FV and Vanguard’s.

2 Likes

Are you trolling? How can it bloody be twice as fast, we don’t have 30 attacks per minute on live and in DF Alpha/Beta we had 60.

You must be trolling, Art of War has 24% chance to proc on Live.
Sanctification was overtuned, since it was better on ST than the one designed for ST.
You didn’t know that, did you?

I’m comparing LIVE gameplay to DF gameplay.
I can see that you’re trolling.

You can calculate how much weaker it is now, you know that, right?
Seal of Crusader increases Holy Damage taken by 3/6% (was 5/10%).

I can see that you have 0 logic, since you can’t even calculate something being decreased from 10% to 6%. You know it’s like going from 100% to 60% right? Meaning it’s 40% weaker.

Dude, get the hell out of here and stop wasting my time.

Says the troll.

9 Likes

Why are you constantly comparing DF gameplay to live? They are completely different. There’s an entire reworked talent system.

See above. How it plays on live is completely irrelevant to the DF gameplay.

Right, which is the LAST thing you should do, considering we’re in the FINAL patch of an expansion, and we don’t have the ENTIRE BRAND NEW talent system.

Is this what you resort to when your arguments don’t hold up?

So do it, show us the numbers.

And how does this affect our total damage done? That’s what I’m asking you.

Says someone that’s actually in the beta and has mained Ret since Vanilla. Sorry, but unsubstantiated doomsay and accusing others of trolling isn’t going to convince.

Because i actually have a brain and can compare 2 states of the same product.

Take your trolling elsewhere i’m not wasting another post on you.

8 Likes

Except you’re comparing 2 COMPLETELY DIFFERENT states. Again, one is the final patch without an entire new talent system, and one is the FIRST patch with the new talent system. What we call this is a FALSE EQUIVALENCY.

Calling people that disagree with you “trolls” isn’t convincing.

1 Like

Because we want to be taking our current characters that we play on Live, and play them in DF. So ‘before’ and ‘after’ are relevant things to compare. Also, even though the talent system’s structure is different, most of the talents aren’t (more’s the pity), and the rotation and gameplay isn’t either. Thus it’s completely reasonable and sensible to look back to Live and make comparisons.

Here’s the thing - compared to the class and spec of yesteryear, of MoP or WoD, or even Legion, the Retribution of today is a pale and extremely bland reflection of itself, and DF looks to be continuing that trend. I, for one, do not think that this is the right direction to be moving in.

2 Likes

That’s not how new expansions work. You lose your power at the start of new expansions. You’re not supposed to have gameplay as fast paced as you did in the last patch of the previous expansion. It’s been like this for a decade now, not sure why it’s a surprise now.

1 Like