The new Guild UI and Permissions...yikes (Part 1)

Community General Discussion
1686
Here is a post-within-a-post that again explains why the all-in-one permissions don't work for most guilds (this is from page 29):
07/26/2018 10:35 AMPosted by Greenstone
07/26/2018 09:18 AMPosted by Darkpunisher
I am super surprised that the backlash is not more intense.. as a guild co-gm the changes have affected our guild greatly on functionality.. I cannot properly perform my duties while our main gm is MiA because the blanket change messed up the entire setup we had put in place and destroyed our intended uses to function as a progressive earn your way up guild.. we wanted our members to feel they were progressing in the guild, not be stuck with the same generic crap for each rank.. we need some action on this before it destroys the value of guilds


Exactly the idea of most guilds is that you have an upward value to the ranks, lowest rank has lowest permissions.

For Example:

Main GM
GM Alts / Co GM
Main Officers
Captains / Recruiters
Raiders
Part Time Raiders
Non Raiders / Higher Level Guildes
Non Raiders / Medium Level Guildies
New Guildies
Muted Channel

(Above is just one example of a tiered guild.)

This overall setup gives a way to upgrade a non-raiding user three levels, and raiding users five levels, giving an overall progression to guild mates. It also gives rewards as you increase in levels including the ability to repair with guild gold at increasingly higher levels, ability to invite to guild so on. The higher levels would have the ability to change their own guild note as well.

Honestly we need the permissions back the way they were even if you keep the horrible new guild UI smashed into the community UI the permission issue needs to be fixed. Its damaging the whole concept of rewards in a guild.
I really like the simple list showing how a typical guild would divide their ranks, clearly demonstrating why separate permissions are so important.

Note: This post is still from July. I know more recent posts have offered ideas beyond simply reverting the changes, but since so many, many, many posts are just asking for a reversal, I feel it's fair to pick out representatives of those posts.
1687
WTB fixed guild management systems, PST with price.
1688
We've passed 1700 replies? But they're still asking for us to give feedback on what we don't like about it? I'm going to let that sink in for a while. Be back later.
1689
Can this be true? Tell me can this be real?
How can I put into words what I feel?
Our guild was complete, we had full control,
why do we feel like this version's a troll?

Never thought that we would be ignored.
Their silence seems like they're just bored.
How can it be, that right here with me,
Other GMs...
They're all crying out...

These changes are so stupid,
worthless and dumb.
It's like they took advice from,
a homeless street bum.

When I see the new UI I know that it's true,
Blizzard just wants, the GM's to feel like fools...
(Just like foo-oools...ooh yeah baby).

In all of Warcraft, B-for-A, Azerite,
Why did they break the one thing that was right?
So simple, so good, and yet, so complete,
The old interface was perfect and sweet.

And I'm trying hard to figure out,
Just what these changes were about.
Why is Ythisens the only one here,
Seems like only he cares...
It's not remotely fair...

These changes are so stupid,
worthless and dumb.
It's like they took advice from,
a homeless street bum.

When I see the new UI I know that it's true,
Blizzard just wants, the GM's to feel like fools...
1 Like
1690
Is it the UI? Or is it the Rank Controls?
Caught in an impasse, no escape from this rabbit hole.

Open your eyes.
Click into this thread and see...
We're just some GM's, looking for sympathy,
Because we're waiting here, wanting more.
Please tell us, what's in store?
Fix it or say we're wrong, doesn't really matter to me....to me...

Blizzard, just killed our guilds.
Tried to copy from Discord,
ended up stabbing with a sword.
Blizzard, the expac's just begun!
But now you've gone and thrown the guilds away!
Blizzard! Oooooooo!
Didn't want our guilds to die!
If a blue doesn't post in here this time tomorrow,
Carry on, carry on, 'cause nothing else really matters.

Too late, for change to come.
These controls are asinine,
Guildies complaining all the time.
C'mon everybody, we've got to post!
Gotta let the devs all know about the truth!
Blizzard! Ooooooooo!
Don't let this issue by,
We all just wish you'd never changed things all!

I see a little silhouetto of Ythisens...
It's a blue, it's a blue, time to get a response-o
Updates in the PTR showing not a thing has changed!
Hazzikostas, Hazzikostas.
Hazzikostas, Hazzikostas
Hazzikostas please respond We need you nooooooooooow!

We're just the players paying our monthly fee,
He's just a player on a bad posting spree, spare him his pain from this monstrosity!
Easy fix, easy change, will you change it back!
We are Bliz, NO WE WILL NOT CHANGE IT BACK!
Change it back!
We are Bliz, WE WILL NOT CHANGE IT BACK!
Change it back!
Will you never change it back, change it back...
Oh no no no no no no no
Oh mamma mia, mamma mia - mamma mia change it back!

The Blizzard Devs have decided not to look at this...at this...at THIS!

*Guitar Riff*
So you think you can change this and not say a word?!
So you think we accept that we're not being heard?
Ohhhh Blizzard! Can't do this to us Blizzard!
Just wanna get out, just wanna get right out of here!

Oooh yeah, Oooh yeah
Nothing else really matters...
This whole thing's a bust...
Nothing else really matters...
To us...

Anyway the Windfury Blows...
1691
Oops, forgot to post a suggestion:

Suggestion: Bring back guild levels and implement progressive level-based rewards populated with QoL effects that are tiered based upon current guild rep. Putting stuff like "50% extra chance to level crafting" on the bottom to "Bonus 5% rep gains" at the top.

Ah, ah, ah, ah, stayin' alive, stayin' alive...
1692
Suggestion: Guild PvP talents.

Give Guild members a 1% buff to primary stats for being within 100 yards of each other, stacking up to 5 times.
1693
Mmmm, Queen.....

Also suggestion: Do that thing we've said about a thousand times in this thread.
1694
Osiris, I want you to know that wherever you are, you are not forgotten! My wife will not allow me to get off this hill and thus I fight for you!
1695
Blizzard asks for feedback and this thread generates months worth of feedback and these guys can't stop by to give us an update. It's amazing that people still believe feedback actually does anything, we can't even get these guys to stop by and make a comment about how they are supposedly still looking into it. These blues are full of it.
1696
10/04/2018 11:59 AMPosted by Venjin
Is it the UI? Or is it the Rank Controls?
Caught in an impasse, no escape from this rabbit hole.

Open your eyes.
Click into this thread and see...
We're just some GM's, looking for sympathy,
Because we're waiting here, wanting more.
Please tell us, what's in store?
Fix or tell us we're wrong, doesn't really matter to me....to me...

Blizzard, just killed our guilds.
Tried to copy from Discord,
ended up stabbing with a sword.
Blizzard, the expac's just begun!
But now you've gone and thrown the guilds away!
Blizzard! Oooooooo!
Didn't want our guilds to die!
If a blue doesn't post in here this time tomorrow,
Carry on, carry on, 'cause nothing else really matters.

Too late, for change to come.
These controls are asinine,
Guildies complaining all the time.
C'mon everybody, we've got to post!
Gotta let the devs all know about the truth!
Blizzard! Ooooooooo!
Don't let this issue by,
We all just wish you'd never changed things all!

I see a little silhouetto of Ythisens...
It's a blue, it's a blue, time to get a response-o
Updates in the PTR showing not a thing has changed!
Hazzikostas, Hazzikostas.
Hazzikostas, Hazzikostas
Hazzikostas please respond We need you nooooooooooow!

We're just the players paying our monthly fee,
He's just a player on a bad posting spree, spare him his pain from this monstrosity!
Easy fix, easy change, will you change it back!
We are Bliz, NO WILL NOT CHANGE IT BACK!
Change it back!
We are Bliz, NO WILL NOT CHANGE IT BACK!
Change it back!
Will you never change it back, change it back...
Oh no no no no no no no
Oh mamma mia, mamma mia - mamma mia change it back!

The Blizzard Devs have decided not to look at this...at this...at THIS!

*Guitar Riff*
So you think you can change this and not say a word?!
So you think we accept that we're not being heard?
Ohhhh Blizzard! Can't do this to us Blizzard!
Just wanna get out, just wanna get right out of here!

Oooh yeah, Oooh yeah
Nothing else really matters...
This whole thing's a bust...
Nothing else really matters...
To us...

Anyway the Windfury Blows...
^This is EPIC.

You've outdone yourself, Venjin.

"I see a little silhouetto of Ythisens...
It's a blue, it's a blue, time to get a response-o"
1697
I read the post from the "If you could ask Ythisens anything" thread, and am at least pleased to see that the Yak does in fact read our suggestions "almost everyday". /wave @ Ythisens.

I realize that although we have offered pages upon pages of pretty valuable feedback, this thread cannot be turned into a joke, and I for one, have not posted anything very valuable in a little while, so I'd like to offer one final post: To bring forward my ideas, and leave you all with a story.

So for my suggestions, they are truly very simple. I personally understand, and see the benefit of having an "Is Officer" button. There are benefits for many players who are new to GM'ing, or those whom wish not to be bothered with the detailed options of the past. HOWEVER, there are just as many, if not more, people (Or GM's) like myself, who preferred the old options, of having all the options within the "Is Officer" toggle dissolved into their own respective toggles. With that being said, I think it would be GREAT to have a drop down menu in the guild rank permissions tab, that allowed for the old options, or "Advanced", while also leaving the new toggle there under a "simplified" sub-menu. It gives the players options if they desire them.
I understand that I may not understand the technical issues that come with a change of this magnitude, but if you have to choose between this new method, or reverting to the old one, then definitely revert to the old one. And if you need a good reason as to why I am suggesting the specific permissions, then you should refer to the other 86 pages of responses within this thread.

NOW FOR A SHORT STORY

I have been running a guild on WyrmrestAccord-US for nearly 4 years, it goes by the name of <Division Seven>. We are an RP guild that raids on the side. (While I know some of you may make fun of RP-ers, I personally believe that when subs dropped in WoD from lack of content, those who stayed around and continued to pay their subscriptions were RP-ers. Because when there is no new content being released, RPers make their own content. I know that for a fact because WoD is when my guild flourished.) Anyway, today, on the 5th of October in 2018 my guild has fallen apart. It was a voluntary collapse mostly, but the roots of infection were planted when these new permissions were implemented. I created a small hierarchy of ranks and power within RP. Many ranks were attainable by anybody, and I fragmented permissions throughout 10 separate ranks. When all of the ranks were melted down, I had to demote almost all of my officers, mid to high tier. These are my friends for years, and while most of them were not affected by the changes, there were some that were. Drama festered, and while I plan to move forward with many of my long lasting members, I have LOST friends today. I am not trying to place blame, I am just trying to convince whoever is in charge, to make a change, for the better.

Let me decide how my ranks should look.

Thank you.

Edit: Spelling
1698
10/04/2018 11:06 PMPosted by Beyzen
I read the post from the "If you could ask Ythisens anything" thread, and am at least pleased to see that the Yak does in fact read our suggestions "almost everyday". /wave @ Ythisens.

I realize that although we have offered pages upon pages of pretty valuable feedback, this thread cannot be turned into a joke, and I for one, have not posted anything very valuable in a little while, so I'd like to offer one final post: To bring forward my ideas, and leave you all with a story.

So for my suggestions, they are truly very simple. I personally understand, and see the benefit of having an "Is Officer" button. There are benefits for many players who are new to GM'ing, or those whom wish not to be bothered with the detailed options of the past. HOWEVER, there are just as many, if not more, people (Or GM's) like myself, who preferred the old options, of having all the options within the "Is Officer" toggle dissolved into their own respective toggles. With that being said, I think it would be GREAT to have a drop down menu in the guild rank permissions tab, that allowed for the old options, or "Advanced", while also leaving the new toggle there under a "simplified" sub-menu. It gives the players options if they desire them.
I understand that I may not understand the technical issues that come with a change of this magnitude, but if you have to choose between this new method, or reverting to the old one, then definitely revert to the old one. And if you need a good reason as to why I am suggesting the specific permission, then you should refer to the other 86 pages of responses within this thread.

NOW FOR A SHORT STORY

I have been running a guild on WyrmrestAccord-US for nearly 4 years, it goes by the name of <Division Seven>. We are an RP guild that raids on the side. (While I know some of you may make fun of RP-ers, I personally believe that when subs dropped in WoD from lack of content, those who stayed around and continued to pay their subscriptions were RP-ers. Because when there is no new content being released, RPers make their own content. I know that for a fact because WoD is when my guild flourished.) Anyway, today, on the 5th of October in 2018 my guild has fallen apart. It was a voluntary collapse mostly, but the roots of infection were planted when these new permissions were implemented. I created a small hierarchy of ranks and power within RP. Many ranks were attainable by anybody, and I fragmented permissions throughout 10 separate ranks. When all of the ranks were melted down, I had to demote almost all of my officers, mid to high tier. These are my friends for years, and while most of them were not affected by the changes, there were some that were. Drama festered, and while I plan to move forward with many of my long lasting members, I have LOST friends today. I am not trying to place blame, I am just trying to convince whoever is in charge, to make a change, for the better.

Let me decide how my ranks should look.

Thank you.


The sad reality is that this story is NOT unique. Other GM's have faced this exact situation with the implementation of the new UI and controls.

C'mon, all joking aside, when's this gonna be reverted?
1699
10/04/2018 11:06 PMPosted by Beyzen
I read the post from the "If you could ask Ythisens anything" thread, and am at least pleased to see that the Yak does in fact read our suggestions "almost everyday". /wave @ Ythisens.

I realize that although we have offered pages upon pages of pretty valuable feedback, this thread cannot be turned into a joke, and I for one, have not posted anything very valuable in a little while, so I'd like to offer one final post: To bring forward my ideas, and leave you all with a story.

So for my suggestions, they are truly very simple. I personally understand, and see the benefit of having an "Is Officer" button. There are benefits for many players who are new to GM'ing, or those whom wish not to be bothered with the detailed options of the past. HOWEVER, there are just as many, if not more, people (Or GM's) like myself, who preferred the old options, of having all the options within the "Is Officer" toggle dissolved into their own respective toggles. With that being said, I think it would be GREAT to have a drop down menu in the guild rank permissions tab, that allowed for the old options, or "Advanced", while also leaving the new toggle there under a "simplified" sub-menu. It gives the players options if they desire them.
I understand that I may not understand the technical issues that come with a change of this magnitude, but if you have to choose between this new method, or reverting to the old one, then definitely revert to the old one. And if you need a good reason as to why I am suggesting the specific permission, then you should refer to the other 86 pages of responses within this thread.

NOW FOR A SHORT STORY

I have been running a guild on WyrmrestAccord-US for nearly 4 years, it goes by the name of <Division Seven>. We are an RP guild that raids on the side. (While I know some of you may make fun of RP-ers, I personally believe that when subs dropped in WoD from lack of content, those who stayed around and continued to pay their subscriptions were RP-ers. Because when there is no new content being released, RPers make their own content. I know that for a fact because WoD is when my guild flourished.) Anyway, today, on the 5th of October in 2018 my guild has fallen apart. It was a voluntary collapse mostly, but the roots of infection were planted when these new permissions were implemented. I created a small hierarchy of ranks and power within RP. Many ranks were attainable by anybody, and I fragmented permissions throughout 10 separate ranks. When all of the ranks were melted down, I had to demote almost all of my officers, mid to high tier. These are my friends for years, and while most of them were not affected by the changes, there were some that were. Drama festered, and while I plan to move forward with many of my long lasting members, I have LOST friends today. I am not trying to place blame, I am just trying to convince whoever is in charge, to make a change, for the better.

Let me decide how my ranks should look.

Thank you.


I'm so sorry. Thank you for sharing your story. This never should have happened, and I hope that your story helps Blizzard to understand the collateral damage in the permissions change. I know that I have been actively working to mitigate this type of damage to my guild since July. I'm sure many others here have as well. As Venjin said, the sad reality is that this is not unique.
1700
My guild has dwindled down to three mains, and a couple of friends with alts. I was set to launch a recruiting effort with BfA's release.

As of the new permissions, I have abandoned that effort.

I cannot expect to breathe new life into a guild that cannot offer a set of rewards, goals, or solid management structure. Formerly, I had ranks and permissions for exactly that.

Blizzard, it seems, has forgotten (I mean you, Morhaime, Brack, Gresko, Adham and Hazzikostas) that good leaders delegate. The five of you aren't on even footing with your permissions (a la IsOfficer)--you each have different goals, responsibilities, jobs... Morhaime's guild permissions are being altered, but I bet they aren't lumped together...

I'm demanding, as a paying customer, a response. Here. Not elsewhere, in another thread, not at Blizzcon... Here. Tell us something.
1701
10/04/2018 11:06 PMPosted by Beyzen
Anyway, today, on the 5th of October in 2018 my guild has fallen apart.
I'm very sorry for your loss. (Yes, the death of a guild rates grief and condolences, don't let anyone tell you different.)

I've been hoping that guilds were somehow coping with these changes, though I knew deep down this wouldn't always be the case. Now I can no longer pretend the changes are just making management more difficult and aren't actually killing guilds.

To any Blizzard employee reading this: Beyzen's suggestion for "Advanced" options is an excellent solution that offers both the all-in-one choice for those GM's who find that the easiest way to go, as well as letting the rest of us assign permissions as we think will most benefit our guilds. I know he isn't the only player to have suggested this, which makes the idea all the more viable.

Blizzard, please, hear us. This is not a good thing you've done, and it's causing real harm to your game. You seriously need to fix this.
1702
10/05/2018 07:58 AMPosted by Fumel
Blizzard, please, hear us. This is not a good thing you've done, and it's causing real harm to your game. You seriously need to fix this.


This is the long, and short of it. Please
1703
10/05/2018 07:49 AMPosted by Roguewit
My guild has dwindled down to three mains, and a couple of friends with alts. I was set to launch a recruiting effort with BfA's release.

As of the new permissions, I have abandoned that effort.

I cannot expect to breathe new life into a guild that cannot offer a set of rewards, goals, or solid management structure. Formerly, I had ranks and permissions for exactly that.

Blizzard, it seems, has forgotten (I mean you, Morhaime, Brack, Gresko, Adham and Hazzikostas) that good leaders delegate. The five of you aren't on even footing with your permissions (a la IsOfficer)--you each have different goals, responsibilities, jobs... Morhaime's guild permissions are being altered, but I bet they aren't lumped together...

I'm demanding, as a paying customer, a response. Here. Not elsewhere, in another thread, not at Blizzcon... Here. Tell us something.


I'm not joking around when I say my wife has suspended recruiting. Until she can get a solid rank structure in-place, she does not want to bring any new faces into the fold until our ranks once again reflect the varying levels of trust and accessibility that we had before.

If other guilds are following similar suits, then how is this a step towards restoring or preserving a healthy community? Isn't the basic point of guilds to bring like-minded people together?

My RL friends are asking when we can see the change reverted. I've basically been elected as the voice of Rising Sun (Bronzebeard) to get this stuff fixed by coming here and speaking for not just my wife, but our buddies too. I want to have us grow again. But what's been done here is just...terrible. Lack of foresight is a kind way to describe it. There are worse terms.

Suggestion: For now, revert the Granular Rank Permissions to pre-patch functionality.

Why: 75+ pages of reasons (I'll admit, there are more pages but those are just songs by some whack-job with too much time on his hands).
1704
My daily read-through is getting more and more depressing. Post after post describing how the permission changes are tearing apart guilds. Since I'm still on posts from July, the posters are hopeful this is "temporary" and "will be fixed soon", and that they have "stop-gap measures" they're using in the meantime. Reading these when I know it's not fixed more than two months later is what's so disheartening.

This post from page 30 isn't a complaint or suggestion. It's explaining how (the poster believes) Blizzard does things, and why having responses here really isn't useful or necessary. I don't know if the poster's right, but it's a perspective that makes me feel more hopeful, so I'm quoting it.
07/26/2018 05:03 PMPosted by Ningdorei
The issues with the legacy loot transmog farming shows this is how they act. They donā€™t answer until they have a solution. It took a long time for the transmog farming issue (which was possibly larger in terms of posts) to get a response but when it did they fixed it in 1 fell swoop.

I think one thatā€™s difficult to remember is that any fixes for this would not be a collaborative effort between devs and the playerbase. Itā€™s just the devs trying to address our concerns. So the value of a back and forth conversation isnā€™t that high at all.
Here's hoping the devs truly ARE working on a fix, and that it'll be done sooner than later, in "1 fell swoop."
1705
10/05/2018 01:29 PMPosted by Fumel
My daily read-through is getting more and more depressing. Post after post describing how the permission changes are tearing apart guilds. Since I'm still on posts from July, the posters are hopeful this is "temporary" and "will be fixed soon", and that they have "stop-gap measures" they're using in the meantime. Reading these when I know it's not fixed more than two months later is what's so disheartening.

This post from page 30 isn't a complaint or suggestion. It's explaining how (the poster believes) Blizzard does things, and why having responses here really isn't useful or necessary. I don't know if the poster's right, but it's a perspective that makes me feel more hopeful, so I'm quoting it.
07/26/2018 05:03 PMPosted by Ningdorei
The issues with the legacy loot transmog farming shows this is how they act. They donā€™t answer until they have a solution. It took a long time for the transmog farming issue (which was possibly larger in terms of posts) to get a response but when it did they fixed it in 1 fell swoop.

I think one thatā€™s difficult to remember is that any fixes for this would not be a collaborative effort between devs and the playerbase. Itā€™s just the devs trying to address our concerns. So the value of a back and forth conversation isnā€™t that high at all.
Here's hoping the devs truly ARE working on a fix, and that it'll be done sooner than later, in "1 fell swoop."


As an IT administrator, I understand the, "I don't have anything relevant to say on this issue while I continue to work to resolve it," attitude--so, from the dev standpoint, they may be more focused on fixing it than telling us they're fixing it.

However, I have also been CEO of a technology company, and as such, I can tell you that lack of communication on the issues at hand make for some massively irate customers. In any good company structure, there exists a PR machine--the sole goal of which is to keep customers apprised of what is being done to resolve issues. Even when zero progress has been made, customers just need to know they aren't being ignored. It's good business.